The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

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The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby Morph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:24 am

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

When I completed my plane I filled in all the documentation and sent everything neccessary in to CAA. They accepted all of this and issued me with a proving flight authority. In the mean time the plane was damaged and repaired by Boet. Note that no structural changes were made to the plane, merely, bend here, weld there and viola recover with the same material

So I send in the application for ATF and bang, HKGK :twisted: :twisted: . Now MC (the oke doin the paperwork in CAA) is calling for
1. new W&B, because it is repaired and propellor was replaced
2. runout check done on the gearbox because there was a prop strike
3. Compass Swing test done on the compass, which by law has to be there and has to be swung once a year. CT international do this at a cost of R10k :shock:
4. a Colour photo of the plane, not an email a photo,
5. I sent in the flight folio, Boet told me to, now MC wants to take his time and process it, then is neccessay approve it. If there are changes he will inform me and then I need to create 2 full colour, bound versions of the flight manual and send it to him. He will then stamp one and send it back, this must be kept in the plane, and the other goes into the file.

Now the biggest issue is the compass. I have never heard of any Microlight requiring this test in the past and every year. He insists that this is in fact the case. I have asked him for copies of the legislation to prove this requirement, still waiting. So I send this message to him, to forward on to the relevant okes in CAA. Let's see what happens. I am, in short requesting the use of a GPS in lieu of a magnetic compass.

BTW, heads up, he is coming to CT during AAD and he wants to inspect all the aircraft at the various airfields, i.e. ramp test. I suffer from transient memory loss and for the life of me can't remember where Morning Star is :wink:
To Whom It May Concern:

CAA

I am in the process of applying for the first ATF for a Bushbaby ZU-EPH. I built this aircraft myself under guidance from the Bushbaby Factory and their agents. I have a rudementry compass installed into the aircraft. MC has requested that I present him with a copy of the compass swing test that needs to be performed on this compass

Now, Bushbaby aircraft, due to the use of metal tubing in the airframe, and the close proximity of metal braces around the entire cockpit area, and in particular the dash board make it virtually impossible to get a traditional magnetic compass to work correctly. This statement is further supported by the fact that MC himself has rather installed an MGL digital unit and located the electrically operated Magnatrometer into the wingtip, (the wings are constructed of wood and aliminium and thus non-ferrous) in his own Bush Baby. CAR 91.04.4 states that minimum flight instruments required for an aircraft for VFR flight include a magnetic compass. This compass is subject to compass swing tests, and the resulting deviation card needs to be kept in the aircraft at all times.

MC has also informed me that a GPS device may NOT be used as a primary flight instrument. I can understand this statement, in particular with reference to airspeed, where the GPS only measures ground speed, and altitude, where the GPS basis this on sufficient sattelite coverage and the ability to then make a 3 dimensional calculation. However the GPS also has a Compass feature, that is not magnetic, and thus not subject to deviation as a result of ferrous metals in close proximity to it. It can be set to both Magnetic or True headings and is not subject to drift at any time. Additionally the compass funtion in the GPS, being reliant on external references and motion to provide a heading are inherently accurate and do not require any form of compass swings, and the resulting deviation card.

If the motivation is around the fact that the GPS is electrical and is thus subject to failure, I would say that due to the fact that the GPS has it’s own internal battery source, over and above to being powered by the aircraft battery makes it inherently more reliable than the MGL digital unit and Magnatrometer, currently being used in other planes as a magentic compass replacement, which does NOT have it’s own internal power source.

As far as the ability to have compass swings done in the Cape Town area, there is only Cape Town international, that has these facilities. Microlight aircraft do not have transponders installed and have an approach speed of 70MPH are thus NOT permitted to land at Cape Town international airport. MC has mentioned the need to then purchase a Landing Compass at an estimated cost of R2500, which will enable the compass swing test to be performed, on a compass that cost a mere R300. Additionally a vast majority of compasses used in microlight aircraft do not have adjustable compensating magnets, making the ability to adjust the compass swings to within 5 deg therefor impossible.

MC made the statment that even though microlights generally do not fly in Controlled Airspace, that there is still the possibility of this occuring, and should a ATC tell you to fly a heading of 330deg then you must be able to do so. I suggest that a GPS would be a far more accurate device to use, than a compass and it’s deviation card. Additionally the GPS would also be used in any case to give the ATC accurate ETE, ETA and distance measurements.

I would like to propose the use of a respected dedicated GPS Device, manufactured by established manufacturers, such as Garmin and Magellan, that have their own internal power source, and are reknown for their reliability to be used in Microlight aircraft in lieu of traditional magentic compasses to provide magentic heading readings to the Pilot. Also, as a result of their inherent accuracy, these devices also be not subject to the now unneccesary compass swing test.

Yours Sincerely

Morph
ZU-EPH
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby AndyG » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:43 am

Eeeeiiisshhh

Good luck, let us know the outcome. Could be interesting for all.


Cheers,
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:06 pm

Morph.

Not as bad as that. I went through same deal with RV.... I have all the answers... I have to go there tomorrow so can do them if necessary and you can collect all originals when you come fetch mustprang....

1. new W&B, because it is repaired and propellor was replaced
Use 3 bathroom scales. I have exel worksheet which will calc all the BS they want and print a nice picture. It for the KR/RV, but we can modify it. No problem... Get boet to sign the WB cert as builder/weigher... The more items signed by 3rd parties the better. The W&B has to be done every 5 years or when any changes are made. It been like that forever, but only recently being enforced... :evil:

2. runout check done on the gearbox because there was a prop strike
Get Nirren to write a letter explaining slipper clutch or run the engine and get Oom Boet to write a letter (in capacity as aircraft builder/test facility) stating runout is nil/neg or acceptable for Rattex... Dissasemble slipper clutch and take some pics for them to put on file... More paperwork the better (I assume it has a slipper clutch...

3. Compass Swing test done on the compass, which by law has to be there and has to be swung once a year. CT international do this at a cost of R10k
They are ripping you off... Compass swing is not a big deal. Any avionics shop can do it for a couple 100 bucks. Think last one Dart at Rand did for me was R256.00. A complete compass overhaul (basically a new compass exchange for your old one is < R1000 I think?) You can do it yourself, but I don't know if CAA will accept it. We used to swing the 182s compass at Brits before Rally flying competitions. Basically you just need a correction card stuck on the compass to show what to steer to go N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW...

4. a Colour photo of the plane, not an email a photo,
Email me the photo and I will deliver it to him in full colour tomorrow. (Interesting note. Only reason they need it is to be able to identify the wreck in case of accident)....

5. I sent in the flight folio, Boet told me to, now MC wants to take his time and process it, then is neccessay approve it. If there are changes he will inform me and then I need to create 2 full colour, bound versions of the flight manual and send it to him. He will then stamp one and send it back, this must be kept in the plane, and the other goes into the file.
Do it in black and whie, then no need for colour. Again email it to me and I will deliver to him. Make a new flight folio.
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby Rudix » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:15 pm

Eish !!!

I went through a similar situation twice, first time with same MC was a mess of note.....

Then I had to do it again for a different plane, this time it was not MC and it only took minutes....

Now I ask you, where is the problem ??

Best of luck !
Rudi
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby AndyG » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:43 pm

RV4

Nice to have a guy like you around. You are always helping the guys out.

Cheers
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby Boet » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:40 pm

Awwww, ferferkssakes, all we ever wanted to do is JUST FLY. It is our sport, being OVER REGULATED. Laat ek liewer stilbly. Dan het ek ALLES gese. ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) ($$) :evil:
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby Morph » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:07 am

RV4ker wrote:Morph.

Not as bad as that. I went through same deal with RV.... I have all the answers... I have to go there tomorrow so can do them if necessary and you can collect all originals when you come fetch mustprang....

1. new W&B, because it is repaired and propellor was replaced
I am getting this done by one of our AP's here in CT

2. runout check done on the gearbox because there was a prop strike
Again I can get this done and a report written without any major issues. This can be done this weekend

3. Compass Swing test done on the compass, ..... Any avionics shop can do it for a couple 100 bucks. Think last one Dart at Rand did for me was R256.00.
Do you get the shop to come out to you, or do you have to get the plane to them. The only airfields that have avionics shops is CT int, not allowed to fly in, and Stellenbosch, No microlights allowed.

4. a Colour photo of the plane, not an email a photo,
Emailed photo on it's way

5. Flight folio, Do it in black and whie, then no need for colour. Again email it to me and I will deliver to him. Make a new flight folio.
He already has a copy in black and white that he wants to approve. Once approved I have to bind two original documents, and send them to him. He will then stamp them, send one back to me and one goes into the ile. This is not a problem.

I am waiting for the log book to come back to me so we can do endorse it with the compass swing, the runout test and submit the new W&B
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:28 am

Compass swing needs to be done in the plane. Most avionics shops will come out to you for a fee and do it there.... Check with the Aeronautical group. I have always had good service from them... Also check with the flight schools in the area that are not at FACT. What do they do. As far as I am aware all compasses need to be swung every year.... Maybe you can borrow/rent the handheld compass they use to swing it...

I leave for CAA now with colour pic in hand. If you need anything else just shout...
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby Arnulf » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:11 am

Morph wrote::twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

When I completed my plane I filled in all the documentation and sent everything neccessary in to CAA. They accepted all of this and issued me with a proving flight authority. In the mean time the plane was damaged and repaired by Boet. Note that no structural changes were made to the plane, merely, bend here, weld there and viola recover with the same material

So I send in the application for ATF and bang, HKGK :twisted: :twisted: . Now MC (the oke doin the paperwork in CAA) is calling for
1. new W&B, because it is repaired and propellor was replaced
2. runout check done on the gearbox because there was a prop strike
3. Compass Swing test done on the compass, which by law has to be there and has to be swung once a year. CT international do this at a cost of R10k :shock:
4. a Colour photo of the plane, not an email a photo,
5. I sent in the flight folio, Boet told me to, now MC wants to take his time and process it, then is neccessay approve it. If there are changes he will inform me and then I need to create 2 full colour, bound versions of the flight manual and send it to him. He will then stamp one and send it back, this must be kept in the plane, and the other goes into the file.

Now the biggest issue is the compass. I have never heard of any Microlight requiring this test in the past and every year. He insists that this is in fact the case. I have asked him for copies of the legislation to prove this requirement, still waiting. So I send this message to him, to forward on to the relevant okes in CAA. Let's see what happens. I am, in short requesting the use of a GPS in lieu of a magnetic compass.

BTW, heads up, he is coming to CT during AAD and he wants to inspect all the aircraft at the various airfields, i.e. ramp test. I suffer from transient memory loss and for the life of me can't remember where Morning Star is :wink:
To Whom It May Concern:

CAA

I am in the process of applying for the first ATF for a Bushbaby ZU-EPH. I built this aircraft myself under guidance from the Bushbaby Factory and their agents. I have a rudementry compass installed into the aircraft. MC has requested that I present him with a copy of the compass swing test that needs to be performed on this compass

Now, Bushbaby aircraft, due to the use of metal tubing in the airframe, and the close proximity of metal braces around the entire cockpit area, and in particular the dash board make it virtually impossible to get a traditional magnetic compass to work correctly. This statement is further supported by the fact that MC himself has rather installed an MGL digital unit and located the electrically operated Magnatrometer into the wingtip, (the wings are constructed of wood and aliminium and thus non-ferrous) in his own Bush Baby. CAR 91.04.4 states that minimum flight instruments required for an aircraft for VFR flight include a magnetic compass. This compass is subject to compass swing tests, and the resulting deviation card needs to be kept in the aircraft at all times.

MC has also informed me that a GPS device may NOT be used as a primary flight instrument. I can understand this statement, in particular with reference to airspeed, where the GPS only measures ground speed, and altitude, where the GPS basis this on sufficient sattelite coverage and the ability to then make a 3 dimensional calculation. However the GPS also has a Compass feature, that is not magnetic, and thus not subject to deviation as a result of ferrous metals in close proximity to it. It can be set to both Magnetic or True headings and is not subject to drift at any time. Additionally the compass funtion in the GPS, being reliant on external references and motion to provide a heading are inherently accurate and do not require any form of compass swings, and the resulting deviation card.

If the motivation is around the fact that the GPS is electrical and is thus subject to failure, I would say that due to the fact that the GPS has it’s own internal battery source, over and above to being powered by the aircraft battery makes it inherently more reliable than the MGL digital unit and Magnatrometer, currently being used in other planes as a magentic compass replacement, which does NOT have it’s own internal power source.

As far as the ability to have compass swings done in the Cape Town area, there is only Cape Town international, that has these facilities. Microlight aircraft do not have transponders installed and have an approach speed of 70MPH are thus NOT permitted to land at Cape Town international airport. MC has mentioned the need to then purchase a Landing Compass at an estimated cost of R2500, which will enable the compass swing test to be performed, on a compass that cost a mere R300. Additionally a vast majority of compasses used in microlight aircraft do not have adjustable compensating magnets, making the ability to adjust the compass swings to within 5 deg therefor impossible.

MC made the statment that even though microlights generally do not fly in Controlled Airspace, that there is still the possibility of this occuring, and should a ATC tell you to fly a heading of 330deg then you must be able to do so. I suggest that a GPS would be a far more accurate device to use, than a compass and it’s deviation card. Additionally the GPS would also be used in any case to give the ATC accurate ETE, ETA and distance measurements.

I would like to propose the use of a respected dedicated GPS Device, manufactured by established manufacturers, such as Garmin and Magellan, that have their own internal power source, and are reknown for their reliability to be used in Microlight aircraft in lieu of traditional magentic compasses to provide magentic heading readings to the Pilot. Also, as a result of their inherent accuracy, these devices also be not subject to the now unneccesary compass swing test.

Yours Sincerely

Morph
ZU-EPH
I am a bit concerned by the lack of understanding of the rules and regulations, and the lack of technical knowledge being displayed by certain officials at the CAA.
A radar controller can only give you vectors, if he can see you on his radar screen [0* . For that you must be transponder equipped. ## ## ##
Due to the instability of the magnetic compass, it will be physically impossible to fly a reasonable accurate vector. -xX To be able to comply with vectors, you need at least a stabilized compass. This would be a gyro compass, or an inertial navigation system. If MC is interested, I would be happy to take the time and explain all these things to him.

Regards,
Arnulf
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby Gyronaut » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:12 am

=D* =D* =D* Hear Hear Arnulf!
Has this person (MC) any qualifications whatsoever? If so, I await the big reveal eagerly.
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:27 am

Not taking sides and I and MC have had our differences, but he is simply applying the law. (This was previously not done)...

PS
That said he is long standing ML instructor with something like 4000+ hrs and still runs 3 axis and trike school....

IMHO the problem is that suddenly CAA are applying the law and this was not done in the past. Now we all in the dark and few know EXACTLY what is required. I went for my license and was told to do a 6 month summary. When I got there I had to do a 12 month summary... The new parts 61, 62, 24, 94 & 96 are going to cause grey hairs. Best bet is to post your experiences so as to assist others in learning and not having to go through the same BS as well....

PPS
Morph
Foto hand delivered to MC, and confirmed that it in order...
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby Arnulf » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:42 am

RV4ker wrote:Not taking sides and I and MC have had our differences, but he is simply applying the law. (This was previously not done)...

PS
That said he is long standing ML instructor with something like 4000+ hrs and still runs 3 axis and trike school....

IMHO the problem is that suddenly CAA are applying the law and this was not done in the past. Now we all in the dark and few know EXACTLY what is required. I went for my license and was told to do a 6 month summary. When I got there I had to do a 12 month summary... The new parts 61, 62, 24, 94 & 96 are going to cause grey hairs. Best bet is to post your experiences so as to assist others in learning and not having to go through the same BS as well....

PPS
Morph
Foto hand delivered to MC, and confirmed that it in order...
I don't have a problem if the law is being applied. I do object if bullsh#t is being disseminated. If we need a compass with a card because of the law, so be it. But definately not because of having to comply with radar vectors. This is bullsh#t.
The proper way of dealing with this matter is to either change the law, or get a waiver on certain rules. This is where I would have thought that a person
that is a long standing ML instructor with something like 4000+ hrs and still runs 3 axis and trike school
would be of assistance. How often in his career did he have to fly vectors in his trike? You would expect this tipe of argumentation from a bureaucrat, but not from somebody within the industry.

Regards,
Arnulf
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Re: The woes of trying to get an ATF through for the first time

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:39 am

Arnulf
Agree 100%.

Law states must have a compass and must be swung every 12 months. IMHO nothing to do with vectoring or controlled airspace as you don't need a radio installed to fly as long as you stay out of controlled airspace, so why not same for compass?
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