Ballistic Chutes revisited

[andreb]

A year ago I bought mine from Abe for R22k. That is an increase of 10% from the year before. If they are now R28k+, then I have a point about huge increase in one year.
Not saying that Abe is profiteering at all. Just seems that demand or other forces have pushed price up.

[Arnulf]

GRS price now R28699.50 incl Vat and steel cable

and

A year ago I bought mine from Abe for R22k. That is an increase of 10% from the year before. If they are now R28k+, then I have a point about huge increase in one year.
Not saying that Abe is profiteering at all. Just seems that demand or other forces have pushed price up.

Just do the sums. I paid R 17 000 with exchange rate 7.50:1
With exchange rate 12.2:1 this works out to R 27 653.00

Regards,
Arnulf

[andreb]

Sums are fine, but Arnulf you said you bought stock that was purchased last year at R7.50 and paid R28k+. So exchange rate has nothing to do with price you paid.
Also exchange rate went haywire for short while but has stabilised again. Amazing how many people say they brought stuff in when exchange rate was at it's worst.

Sorry, but I am not tyring to badmouth anyone, especially not Abe. I am just making a point that people are not always above board and will use any reason to make some extra profit.

Maybe we shouldget this thread back to it's original purpose of discussing chutes and not necessailty the pricing. My fault.

[andreb]

Sorry Arnulf, seems I can't do the math.

[Gyronaut]

Maybe we shouldget this thread back to it's original purpose

I couldnt agree more, I dont think the price is an issue if its going to save your life. My question is still whether a ballistic chute has any benefit on a Gyro or not. If 1% of us agree it does then I will fit one, just dont know if I am adding extra weight for no benefit.

Rgds

[gertcoetzee]

Maybe we shouldget this thread back to it's original purpose ....
I couldnt agree more, I dont think the price is an issue

On the contrary, price is one of the two issues. If they were affordable we would not have this discussion. We would all fit one and hope that we could overcome the second issue, namely those G forces when plummeting when the time comes.

[Wargames]

There is only one big flaw in this whole argument, and it is that there is no accident where a trike went down with a shute fitted, nor any tales told by those who deployed their shute, and whether or not it saved his life (ie. Was it a potencialy life threatening situation or not??) (ie. How many G's was he pulling while getting down and pulling the strap??)

This is a very nice thread, and one that should be debated at large. The only problem I have with this, is that no-one, and I repeat no one, will come out and say: "I do not need a shute!!". Because behold stranger, you are going to need it the next week. By saying that, there is not much input I can deliver as a "non-shute flyer", because it will seem like I am flirting with death, and that is something I will never do.

This is something that is a matter of financial preference, or just preference, or just "forced by lack of finances". By saying that, if I felt that flying a trike was unsafe, I would not be flying. full stop. Not even a shute would have made it safe.

Just my 2c. Just had to get it off my chest.

Safe flying, and remember to get something for mothers day on sunday

[Arnulf]

There is only one big flaw in this whole argument, and it is that there is no accident where a trike went down with a shute fitted, nor any tales told by those who deployed their shute, and whether or not it saved his life (ie. Was it a potencialy life threatening situation or not??) (ie. How many G's was he pulling while getting down and pulling the strap??)
This is a very nice thread, and one that should be debated at large. The only problem I have with this, is that no-one, and I repeat no one, will come out and say: "I do not need a shute!!". Because behold stranger, you are going to need it the next week. By saying that, there is not much input I can deliver as a "non-shute flyer", because it will seem like I am flirting with death, and that is something I will never do.

This is something that is a matter of financial preference, or just preference, or just "forced by lack of finances". By saying that, if I felt that flying a trike was unsafe, I would not be flying. full stop. Not even a shute would have made it safe.

Just my 2c. Just had to get it off my chest.

Safe flying, and remember to get something for mothers day on sunday

I am not quite sure where the flaw of the argument is.
Have a look here: http://brsparachutes.com/files/Document ... -Saved.pdf

There are quite a number of trike saves. There are not many details in the list, but I doubt that any pilot would deploy the chute for fun. I would guess all had a very compelling reason to deploy the chute.

The most compelling reason to fit a chute for me was that my son is also flying my trike. I would hate to stand at his grave and agonise why I did not fit a chute. If I was a youngster with no dependents, I would probably not fit a chute. Oh, btw. as a youngster I also rode a motorbike without helmet.

Regards,
Arnulf

[Wargames]

I am not quite sure where the flaw of the argument is.
Have a look here: http://brsparachutes.com/files/Document ... -Saved.pdf

There are quite a number of trike saves. There are not many details in the list, but I doubt that any pilot would deploy the chute for fun. I would guess all had a very compelling reason to deploy the chute.

The most compelling reason to fit a chute for me was that my son is also flying my trike. I would hate to stand at his grave and agonise why I did not fit a chute. If I was a youngster with no dependents, I would probably not fit a chute. Oh, btw. as a youngster I also rode a motorbike without helmet.

Regards,
Arnulf

Hi Arnulf,

Thanks for the link. I counted 6 accounts of trikes where the shute safed them where the shute was deployed for structural failures. This has changed my view. But now the only thing that stands in my way of fitting a shute is the R28k+.

Just one question: this is a page where only safed lives are shown. Is there somewhere maybe a page that shown the amount of trikes that went down, where a shute was fitted, but due to g-forces the pilot could not deploy the shute??

Regards,

[Arnulf]

You probably won't find a page like this. There definately are fatalities where chutes were not deployed for what ever reason. Unfortunately the dude that did not, or could not deploy the chute can't tell all about it .
Only the survivors can. So yes it is a bit of a one sided story.

Regards,
Arnulf

[gertcoetzee]

If you wanted to know, to repack and service a BRS would be R14503.00

[Pumba]

Gert

Does this include the replacement of the rocket? The manufacturers of GRS and BRS have somewhat different views on the repacking and rocket replacement schedules. BRS recommend repacking the shute every 6 years, and replacing the rocket every 2nd repack, thus every 12 years. GRS specify a repack and rocket replacement at 7 year intervals if I recall correctly. I do not know the pricing from the 2 manufacturers.

If you are looking into buying any one of these products, this could be a deciding factor (provided that you actually keep your aircraft for a long time).

I was living in the USA for 2 years until mid 2007. On a trip back to SA, I removed my BRS and took it back to the USA with me after I took off and left the rocket here. Sent it back to the factory in St Paul, Minesota for a repack. It was then just about 10 years old. They called me and gave me an option of ordering a new rocket with the repack. Repack alone would have been around $700, rocket alone is somewhere around $ 400. If I did the whole lot, I could get it done at just over $900. Sounded like a good deal, and I took it. Then, as nearly always happens when you think you are being clever, it happened. They BRS factory called me and asked where I wanted the rocket delivered. Not wanting to deal with transporting an explosive device on a commercial flight I told them to ship it to SA, and to reduce the weight and size or the thing to ship the canister with the chute to me in the USA. I would take it with me on the next flight to SA.

Then the discussion went something like this: Do you have a permit to import explosives Sir? No. Well, you'll have to get one. OK, I'll do that and get back to you. Two weeks and many, many phone calls and e-mails later, I realized that dealing with the CAA is a walk in the park in comparison with this. I called Niren at Aviation Engines and asked him how to go about it. He kindly offered to let BRS ship it to him, they have all the legal stuff in place to do this. Now, the Luftwaffe is the only Airline that will ship this stuff, but they do not do it for nothing! I nearly fainted when Niren e-mailed me and told me that he had received my rocket and I owe him R 5.5k. At the end there was almost no saving on doing it from here.

The trick is that the shipping fee remains the same, even if you ship many units. At least that way, you can spreas the transportation costs over many units. If I had known that, I would have had them keep it and only send it with the next shipment to AE, as my rocket was still good for at least another two years. So you learn.

What to do with the old rocket? I intend to mount it and fire it off on New years eve when everyone else is firing little measly fireworks. Should be spectacular.

Regards
Barry

[Grumpy]

Why do I sence a monopolistic situation here? The prices are horrendous. (Even without considering the exchange rate)Besides the fact that you use it when your life is in danger which would always make it seriously good 'value for life' attachment, surely it is not a difficuly thing to manufacture here in S.A. Afterall if you should ever have to use it you will be in some motion of sorts and probably downwards, can a unit like that used by a skydiver not be developed. A simple ripcord of sorts opening a sealed pouch containing a chute, manufactured according to your particular weight requirement and deployed by airflow should not be rocket science.? There must be some clever vhaps on this forum who can work out the specifications. Afterall anything is better than nothing.
Or am I not thinking clearly

[Arnulf]

Why do I sence a monopolistic situation here? The prices are horrendous. (Even without considering the exchange rate)Besides the fact that you use it when your life is in danger which would always make it seriously good 'value for life' attachment, surely it is not a difficuly thing to manufacture here in S.A. Afterall if you should ever have to use it you will be in some motion of sorts and probably downwards, can a unit like that used by a skydiver not be developed. A simple ripcord of sorts opening a sealed pouch containing a chute, manufactured according to your particular weight requirement and deployed by airflow should not be rocket science.? There must be some clever vhaps on this forum who can work out the specifications. Afterall anything is better than nothing.
Or am I not thinking clearly

You are right. Even though a bit of rocket science is involved, technologically it is not too complex. The big costs come in if you must get it certified for every country where you want to sell the system. Having it tested to the satisfaction of the authorities, and on top of that carry the appropriate legal liability insurance will probably end in similar costs per unit, if locally produced.

Regards,
Arnulf

[grosvenor]

Not saying that Abe is profiteering at all. Just seems that demand or other forces have pushed price up.

I have looked back through my old price lists from Galaxy (GRS manufacturer) to when Abe and I decided to start importing their chutes in 2003. The price from the factory has increased a total of 8.5% in 5 years. I don’t think that is unreasonable. Since 2003, the exchange rate has gone from 7.50 to 12.78, effectively increasing the price of the chutes by 70% based on exchange rate alone. Shipping prices have also increased over the years, although this does not have a huge effect because we import at least 10 units at a time. With some simple maths you can see that a chute that cost R15k in 2003 now costs R28k in 2008, without any creative accounting!

There are other chute manufacturers around the world, and quite honestly, if anyone feels we are ripping people off, go ahead and import another brand of chute. Remember to get the police permits to import explosives, police clearances to store explosives, do the training at the factory, etc. Also if you only import one or two chutes, the shipping will be huge because of it being hazardous goods, so you need to import at least 10 units at a time that you pay up front for and hope you will sell.

Dave