Junkie's Accident - a debate regarding claims and insurance

[John Boucher]

...... a lesson can be learnt from Junkie's daughter!

None of us and I mean NONE are in the position to pass judgement on anyone in this forum and I have in a previous post stated that we should focus on issues at hand rather than get personal!

I suggest the moderators scrap the slanderous pieces in this thread and lets rather learn out of the issues which affect us all and which has been focussed on - matters relating to liability & insurance!

I think apologies to the bereaved should be in order....



BAD NAV

[Beaver 550]

Why did the owner of the school refuse to hand over the aircraft logbooks to the CAA and had to be threatened by police action to hand them over when the investigation started? We do not know it all

[Morph]

I think Young Junkie is referring to the top of Page 4

This reaffirms my opinion that Junkie paid the ultimate cost, and his loved ones have to deal with immeasurably more pain for the rest of their lives. They have endured enough already.

Boet has many times asked to stop this thread and I won't. I want the school to stop their claim

To Young Junkie

Your dad was a fantastic skilled pilot, a brilliant teacher and a great friend. His skills were highly respected in the flying community. There will be times people say things about him that are not true and he cannot defend but remmember something, they will never be able to change what he really was.

None of us including those who claim to be witnesses will know what happened to cause the crash. I don't believe that they have looked carefully enough at the plane, but all rather blame the pilot which is easier. I suggest they start at why all those witnesses who "saw" and heard him take off all state that the engine suddenly reduced in RPM during the climb out

[John Boucher]

Sitting on the sideline lets me realise that there is more to this whole situation than meets the eye.... Conflicting info, cover-ups etc.

I second Morph.....

BAD NAV

[FAWGie]

I want to add somehing as well....

All too often, pilot's are judged on their flying performance and when an accident/incident occurs, folk are far too quick to assume it's because of the pilot's performance....

What I am getting at is that all pilots should fly firstly within the frame work of their own ability and secondly withing the frame work of the aircraft being flown - to the degree that it is well within the limitations of both.

I'll give you an example - Amoungst many other aircraft that I fly, I also fly an RV4 with aerobatic capability...I do certain manoevers like the high speed fly past with rapid climb out transitioned into a stall turn and then high speed fly past in the reciprocal direction....for me it is a well rehearsed manoever and I take a huge amount of data into account and am well ahead of the aircraft...should a low time pilot try the same manoever, they might get behind the curve and misjudge several factors that could result in the unthinkable.....now let's assume the in my down pass after the stall turn, I experience sudden extreme wind shear, a whole new set of circumstances appear that could result in an accident if very fast action is not taken....should an accident occur, folk on the ground would be quick to blame the accident on the extreme manoever (& Pilot) and not on the real reason - the wind shear....

Okay, now take the same line of thinking to a fly past with a rapid climbout and have the engine suddenly not produce full power....the situation will turn dangerous very fast which is NOT due to the pilot, but due to other factors - to jump to the conclusion based on the pilots previous flight actions has absolutely no relevance...It's what happened in those last few moments that will dictate the real cause.....Simply put, nobody knows exactly what happened to cause this tragic event, so therefore speculation about the pilot is totally unfair.

I've mentioned it before in this thread - I doubt gross neglegance could be proven or applied in this case, except if the pilot were flying without a license or similar such factors.....

..and I agree with Graham....at the end of the day, the liability of this matter will be relative to the verbal or written contract between the two parties as to the understanding of liability...that's all the judge will take into account...nothing more and nothing less....

We have all learned very valuable things resulting from this thread....

To young Junkie.....ignore the critics, life is always full of them...your Dad flew out of passion and the accident was most unfortunate and it could have been any one of us pilots on this forum that could have been in his unfortunate position that day....as an Instructor, your Dad unselfishly flew with other students to put something back into aviation and for that, you can be extremely proud of him...

[slysi]

I think this thread has got out of hand and has caused pain to Junkies loved ones. Speculaton will remain speculation. We will never know the cause of the accident.

Morph, I have to disagree with you about stopping this thread. I understand that you want the action stopped against the estate but this thread is not going to help the situation, in fact it may infuriate the parties involved even more. We are not a court of law and as such cannot pass judgement to make the action go away.

I maintain this thread should be deleted.

[John Young]

Gentlemen, to sum up this whole sorry mess: Say I ask to fly your Bushbaby ( Or whatever. ) You give me the keys, no warries. :D The man is very carefull. Exept today. I fly like a bloody fool/hero. Swoop, dive down on people, in general make an asshole and a nuisance of myself, flying YOUR airie. The unthinkable happen. I make BIG boo-boo, write YOUR aerie OFF ............heavens forbid, MYSELF TOO

Boet - from where / whom did this emotive and melodramatic “cock n bull dust” originate and pollute

I second Morph.....

DITTO – I also back Morph.

Regards
John ZU-CIB

[salem]

I agree with Morph wholeheartedly. This is a forum for microlighters by microlighters. As a matter of principle, no subject regarding any aspect of microlighting should be taboo. I have followed this thread with great interest since its beggining, and I am appalled that anyone would have the temerity to want to impose his/her will on all others by having it terminated. I suspect that those who are the most vociferous in wanting to terminate this thread, might have ulterior motives.

[Tumbleweed]

I thought the purpose here was to expose everyone to the risk and responsibilities of firing / flying someone else's plane and I think to an extent, this has been achieved.

Although Boet's contribution appears sensitive, he was playing out a scenario and I don't believe trying to recap any specific incident.

You can speed R190 k/ph in a hired car and have a bumper bash in the car park.

It's none of our business what trivial specifics transpired around this accident and we should not even discuss it. Its not our place.

Leave the documents/ witnesses to the professionals and offer support to victims, owner and even aircraft supplier.

[slysi]

I agree with Morph wholeheartedly. This is a forum for microlighters by microlighters. As a matter of principle, no subject regarding any aspect of microlighting should be taboo. I have followed this thread with great interest since its beggining, and I am appalled that anyone would have the temerity to want to impose his/her will on all others by having it terminated. I suspect that those who are the most vociferous in wanting to terminate this thread, might have ulterior motives.

That is a pretty harsh statement to make. My particular concern is that of Junkies family and in particular his daughter. It is clear she is following the thread. I think you should also not pre judge Boet either. Can I suggest you have a personal conversation with the people you think have alterior motives instead of making acqusations (sic) on an open forum. I for example have already made my views known to Morph in my personal capacity and we are both cool with that. No mud slinging was necessary. Consequently I will no longer partake in this debate as I think it has gotten out of hand.

[skybound®]

The school taking legal action in this case could be extremely risky. With too many what if's and buts in play I am a little dumbstruck as to why the school's legal adviser has taken, what I think could be a huge risk. To explain lets consider another 'what if'.

What if it ends up that the accident is attributed to aircraft or equipment failure. Surely the school would end up being counter sued by the estate?

With the many grey areas around NTCAs too, I am sure a good defense counsel could find a loophole to even push the negligence claim back onto the school. I am sure that claim, if successfull, will far exceed the schools original claim.

I have been involved as a flying club committee member in a court case, and let me tell you now, the only winners are the lawyers.

Anyone ever considering legal action - go to any of those legal journals detailing court cases and open it on any page. For instance Smith vs Francke - there were 3 lawyers and 2 advocates. There was only one winner - BUT all 3 lawyers and both advocates got paid!

[Gadget]

I support morph's view as well.

slysi: I'm sorry to see you feel this way, but I think you are making a mistake in not partaking. Due to the positive and negative feedback that has been provided a pictured has formed of the involved party's. but, and this may have been the best thing about this discussion, the whole claim versus insurance mess has been laid bare. This have caused a lot of people to rethink flips and other type of flying. Maybe making the skys 1% safer. I hope you would re-consider and continue following as everyones input and experience helps to resolve these issues and make them clearer.

Delta VV: These so-called inspectors have not even flown into morning star in similar weather to see what it is like. Anyone know that morning star is not an airfield where you land without the utmost concentration. Even on windstill days she can be a very unforgiving homebase. I seriously doubt wether the truth will be published of what happened on that faitfull day as the inspectors that are involved either does not have the skill or they have not done a proper investigation as yet.

Young Junkie: To you I can only say that your Dad is in all of our minds every single day. I have only known him a very short time but the impact he made on me is so big that i still think of him daily, especially that grin he has if he thinks you are talking utter nonsense(which I did a lot when I was training). You and your family are always on our minds and we will always be there if you need us. Hang in there, the bad guys will eventually dissapear.

To All: Again, the facts are on the table, check your insurance, check your rights and those of everyone flying with you, but most of all, check your plane and yourself.

[Boet]

Re Top of page 4. I was NOT referring to Junkie, or to anyone else, personally. I was putting up a scenario. Humble apologies if it led you to think something else. NO harm intended. Sorry.

[cornell]

I have been involved as a flying club committee member in a court case, and let me tell you now, the only winners are the lawyers.

How True

[John Boucher]

I'm busy getting divorced and let me tell you guys... where I suggested lets try the dialogue around a table thing, I was shot down in flames!

What's happening now - I'm feeding some fat cat lawyer in Bloemfontein that persistently tells my estranged wife how I'm trying to do her in! Now I stand the chance of losing my plane and the things that keep me sane because of that!

Yes, the lawyers get rich out saying : " WE CAN MAKE MONEY OR GAIN OUT Of THIS!!!!! "

You are so correct in making that statement SKYBOUND!