Comments Made - Defending the RAF Gyro

[saraf]

Yes it was just a example.....

Why students take longer on the RAF is because it is a much more responsive and manouverable gyro than the other gyros. It is like a helicopter. The RAF is the nearest to helicopter flying you will get.

I also think that you learn to fly when flying solo, but there is no subsitute for training, with longer training you minimise the risk of making a wrong decition than you would have with less training.

So training is very important, and the more the more you learn the more happy flying ours.

[Cali]

I do not intend to do any Gyro training soon but I just LOVE your flat rate idea. :D

[DieselFan]

Like I said, go and see for yourself if all this Neg talk about the RAF is true, you will be surprised.

Hence the reason I said "dissected". One needs to remove the biast / jealous talk and draw ones own conclusions BUT some points can require further investigating such as the angle of attack VS others? If it's still safe surely there must be something that makes it safe vs the others which can't have the same angle?

I've also some heard some negatives on Elas, Magni etc although not as many, at the same time I can ask what about our local gyro? When mentioned in talk ppl generally raise their eyebrows or sigh?

I don't think trashing rumours or the ppl who repeat them is the solution the solution is to take the rumours and dispell them with facts - a constructive fact finding.

I would like to know why a pilot with 1000 3-axis hours takes 15-20 hours to solo on a RAF?

What Saraf is trying to say is that 3-axis pilots are slow learners

[saraf]

We have given it some thought and found that this is the best way, for us and the client. nobody can then accuse us , like in the past of milking a client. The client also now’s that he gets 45H of training for his money that is included.

So no BS.ing of the client and trying to make money out of him that is not necessary.

Works well...

[t-bird]

Hi Gr8-DAD

I can only speak from my own experience, solo after 4.5 hours on a Gyro and my experience before that was 130 hours on a t-bird.

SAGPA was proposing a rule of minimum hours before solo. Not sure if that was implemented.

[saraf]

angle of attack VS others???????? What angle of attack? the rotor blades to the relative wind? This is exactly why people must find out first before making a decision. becasue the people that give the info does not have a clue what they are talking about.

What is your email , then I will mail you the facts of the RAF....all negative talk has been proven wrong by the facts and the design.

Most gyros in general today is just a copy of someone else's aircraft. The RAF was designed as a powered aircraft and did not follow the line of all the copies of the Bensen. That is why it has a patented mast design, a patented C OF G, and a patented rotor stabilator. This is why RAF also has industrial designs on the shape of the cabin. Because RAF is not a copy of the basic gyros of the 1950's they are free with new technology to change the RAF for the better and that is why almost every other gyro tries to sell the idea that all must be the same or they are dangerous. This is what happens when you copy, then you don't have a deep insight as to how and why things work the way they do. And if you don't know humans become fearful of change and anything different than what we are use to or have is no good.

, I will send you some info on the Mast sytem of the RAF and Rotor stabilator.

[Morph]

A flat rate of R17000 for training is a step in the right direction.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

I like the flat rate idea, but it is effectively a 45hr rate. What happens if pilot is not "ready" at end of 45hrs and what about someone who is "ready" well before?

Unfortunatley it all about cash. Money talks BS walks. If it a career many will not worry too much about cost as it considered an investment. If it a hobby Cash is one (if not the most NB) of the considerations.

I looked at the RAF's that were for sale at FASI (+/-R220k) some years back (Dave A had just got the distributorship for Southern Africa). I like the side by side seating and the price was/is right. Did some research on the Net and spoke to a couple people (were few around then). I had a contract lined up with a school, but needed to get the instructor rated. I could only find one instructor who was rated and he refused to do the convex - basically reasons have been covered above. Don't want to get involved but he is still not that keen on the RAF. I have still not been for that flip or in any eggbeater for that matter (lost interest as it was too much schlepp at that time to get a flight), thus I think having a demo machine here in GP, with instructor will make a HUGE difference... I am not one for listening to others and like to make up my own mind. I have owned 3 aeries which I was "advised" against by some big names in the game for similar reasons discussed above. I have enjoyed them and they have served me well and IMHO do not deserve the K@K rap thay have got...

my 2c
BEFORE YOU JUDGE GO AND FLY IT YOURSELF.....

[GR8-DAD]

R 17 000 / 45 hrs = R 378/hr

OK, what is IN and what is OUT ? Is this on your own aerie?

[saraf]

Hi

Training is in your own gyro.

If you go solo before the 45h great, but unfortunately no price decrease.

If you go over we usually do not charge you for this, as we want you to fly and fly save. If by 60 or 70H you not ready I recommend you try another hobby.

99.9% of students have gone solo before 45h.

Regards

[Tumbleweed]

I think people with an opinion should be encouraged to share it.

Just adds a bit of credibility if they represent / or agents of any product in the aviation industry and show it below their signature. We could then judge whether his opinion is a vested interest or passing on some experience.

I had the gyro itch, approached all dealers and was met with very mixed responses. Some were very accomodating - ELA, others think you're doing them a favour and some base the sales pitch on criticism of competitor brands. Some rely on service centres to sell their stuff.

Thing that got me was; here's a potential customer, ready to spend half million with you, the poppie on the phone can't refer you to anyone directly, but insists that you take down her details and mention her as she'll score the 'referral com'. No one phoned back, no '"when can we accomodate you with an intro?"

I searched the internet, particularly for the RAF as there is no agent up here, and found very little locally. Once opening the USA site, are the many forums and opinions evident. Has to be said (from my point of view) these okes sould like a couple 'klippies & coke weekend home builders' who test -fly without even a licence

I know one thing, I would get off my arse a little earlier in the morning if I could move another half a million stock for the week off one 'new' client.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

What are requirements for GPL (hrs)? I was told 25hrs? Is this correct and will this change when the new part 62 becomes law... If so 45hrs seems like overkill to me? For the record I am not knocking you. I favour the sport pilot license (current 3 axis) as well which has less hrs prescribed than PPL..

[t-bird]

Hi SARAF

What is RAF South Africa’s contingency plan if the only instructor looses his license?

You have already admitted that it was a struggle to get an instructor’s rating.

There are at least 5 instructors for the other types of Gyro’s.

There is not a huge difference between the Ela,Magni,Mt-03 and sycamore.

For an instructor to get a rating from an Ela to Mt-03 would be a non event.

[saraf]

Why would the RAF Instructor loose his License???

We already have 2 instructors on the RAF , and another on his way to Upington to do his Patter and get his rating as we speak. We also have another guy in Witbank that will soon be an Instructor.

We are also looking at other gyro instructors to give them an conversion on the RAF as a Instructor.

You must remember getting the rating is not that easy as you have to have 200+ flying ours in gyros to Qualify for your Instructors rating. 200+ is alot of flying....and can take a while.

I asume that Magni had the same prob when they started in SA.?

Getting the Rating was not the hassle, it was the individuals that was trying to prevent us form getting it that was a struggle......

Regards

Eben

[saraf]

The RAF does not have a yaw problem , with or without doors.

Our Patanted mast system with rubber bussing makes for us not to have a H/S at the back like all the other gyros in SA.

Two-Part Mast System
Many of the gyroplane designers copied the early basic design of the 2x2" mast. Or opted for a rigid mast configuration. The mast had the engine mounted at some point between gimble head and keel. The thrust line became a pivot like a teeter-totter. Provided that the dynamic weight of the rotor was equal to the weight of the pilot and fuel, then the aircraft flew quit nicely. However, the rotors are always changing in lift and drag. As the drag increased, the mast would bend back. As the air equalized in the rotor disc, the drag reduced. This allowed the mast to spring back to its normal spot. This caused all kinds of control issues for the new pilots.
RAF discarded this 2x2" tube, and replaced it with the more robust and rigid 2x4" mast. The 2x4" mast, (now the engine pylon) is about 48" long, and extends about 6" over the pilot's head. The upper part of this 2x4" tube is stuffed with a dressed piece of hardwood. Two holes are drilled through the tube and wood, spaced about 8" apart. A rubber bushing is inserted through the top hole and a center of gravity adjuster in the bottom hole. Two cheek plates (2x4" x 3/16" x 36") are attached to the sides of the mast with two -AN 36 bolts extending through one plate, the rubber bushing in the mast, and out through the other plate. The second bolt goes through one plate into the patented C of G adjuster and out through the second plate. The gimble head is then attached to these cheek plates. The rotor mast (cheek plates) could now flex back and forth and side-to-side independently as the rotor blades moved in flight.
Push Tube Configuration
Unlike the "other" gyroplanes on the market today, the push tubes on the RAF gyroplane are out in front of the gimble head at an opposing angle to the mast. Why put the push tubes at an opposing angle to the mast? This is done to stop resonant vibration in the control push tubes. The push tubes are put into tension when the pilot makes a control input to descend, thus the push tubes cannot bend slightly and resonant vibrations do not like to travel down an opposing angle. When the RAF pilot makes a control input to descend or to correct a slight pitch up, only one thing happens, the gyroplane descends in a controllable attitude. The push tubes do not spring straight - the thrust line does not change. It is a controllable descent, even in a high-speed environment.
On the RAF gyroplane, the push tubes are at an opposing angle (out the front of the head), thus when a wind gust or unstable air hits the rotor disc the cheek plates flex back slightly causing the push tubes to hold down on the front of the torque tube this prevents large changes in the rotor blades angle of attach to the forward motion. The same holds true for a descent. This action reduces the movement of the rotor lift vector with relation to the C of G of the aircraft.
The RAF 2000 Gyroplane push tubes are also SPLIT at midpoint. This split push tube control system was incorporated so that any vibration would stop at midpoint and not affect the lower control yoke going into the joystick. The split push tube design also allows the owner to be able to fold down the mast for transportation or storage.

What I mean by more manouverable gyro is , the RAF can do manouvers that the other gyros can not do. And a lot of Mangni and Ela pilots have told me this. The RAF is also much more sensitave on the stick that the other gyros. But the RAF does not have a yaw prob. at all.

you can leave the rudders and she will just keep on flyin in the direction you were going.