Comments Made - Defending the RAF Gyro

[saraf]

HI Guy's

I have been informed that there is some people in our flying community that is phoning up potential RAF 2000 Gyro Copter clients and informing them of how bad a aircraft the RAF 2000 is. I am asking these people to please stop with there childish acts as if we hear about this again in the future we WILL take action.

P.S - It is a fact that if you can not compete you start to criticize.



Regards

SARAF

[t-bird]

Hi SARAF

I think phoning potential customers is a bit harsh.

The problem with the RAF is that some people love it and some hate it.

People who trained on a RAF usually loves it. You also get guys like Colin who trained on a Magni and converted to the RAF.

The unknown also lead to speculation.

I was very skeptical about gyro’s until I started flying them.

Things that count against the RAF in South Africa are that there are no instructors in Gauteng.

CAA only permits training on your own RAF – “Hear say “

Conversion and training takes longer on a RAF than other gyro’s.

The old horizontal stab issue – quite a lot on the internet.

Pro’s for the RAF :.

The price is very competitive.

Closed cockpit.

MAUW is more than the other Gyro’s

The quality of the frame,controls and rotor is very good.

Controls are very responsive

Solution to your problem is to get instructors in the Gauteng area.

This will introduce more people to the RAF and also lead to a better understanding of it’s flying capabilities.

[Dreamer]

Seldom seen "bad mouthing" opposition products ever be an effective method, at least not when the potential client has a working brain. I am sure anyone looking to buy a gyro will do their own, thourough research.
The products available should stand (or fall) on their merits matching the clients requirements.

[saraf]

Hi T- Bird

I think phoning potential customers is a bit harsh. - This has been done on numerous occasions to our clients and potential clients and this to me is a very childish act to say the least. Why do stuff like this???? What do these people think they are going to achieve? Like you said they do not have a good understanding of how the RAF work nor do they have flying experience in the Gyro to make any comments about it....

The unknown also lead to speculation. - This is a very true statement. If you do not know, why not keep you mouth shut???????

We are busy getting a instructor in Gauteng and will soon have one training clients there. We did not think that we would have the amount of interest that we have gotten when we started so this is our only reason for not having a instructor in GP.... Other think is in the beginning allot of people tried to keep my and my father from getting our GPL's in the RAF and tried to prevent my father from getting his instructors rating on the RAF. Why In don't know. Those people event went as far as to go to CAA.......

CAA only permits training on your own RAF – “Hear say “ - That is utter BS...... They only reason why we only train on the clients gyro is because like you would know insurance are unaffordable... 85% of all instructors train in the clients gyro and not in there own.

The old horizontal stab issue – quite a lot on the internet - 4000h+ Duane Hunn, 3500H+ Jim Logen, 3500h+ Dofin Fritss, 1900H+ Eben Mocke,
Eben Mocke JNR 400H, Lourens Terblanch 400H+ just to mention a couple. All these pilots fly the RAF without the H/S. Now I ask my self, WHY? The 3 most expieranced gyro pilots in the world fly the RAF without the H/S , why?

The stories on the INternet about this issue are because there is a hand full of guy's that think they know everything there is about gyros. They all have no or less that 50H in the RAF or have never even flown in one, but they talk about the Gyro as if they have built it. They do not have a good enough understanding how and why the RAF is built the way it is, and if you don't know you become fearful and nothing is better that what you already have. So the best thing to do then is to criticize.

I wish we could get this "my father is stronger that your father" thing in the Gyro community out of the way for good as this is not good for any of us or any gyro. Lets enjoy the flying , this is what we are suppose to be ejoying and doing.

REgards

SARAF

[Morph]

SARAF, obviously people are very passionate about these Gyros, both possitive and negative. However this is not the way to correct the situation. Positive reafirmation is better than negative. Unfortunately the product has had a bad rap on the internet and people are not particularly comfortable with it. All you need is a little doubt and the customers disappear. You can't blame them, you really must have 100% belief in your plane. Your life depends on it.

RAF needs to change their marketing approach. They need to prove to the world that the product is good, safe, reliable etc. This is the only way you are going to get above this.

[saraf]

I think that RAF has proven that it is a good and save gyro. It is not the most sold gyro in the world for nothing......

What South Africans do not understand is that in America where the most RAF is sold, you DO NOT NEED TO HAVE A LICENSE to fly the RAF OR any other experimental aircraft. If you have a PPL you can fly any other experimental plane with no training at all.

Of the 212 gyro accidents in the US only 12 was RAF and this is less than 5%. And of that 12, 12 WAS PILOT ERROR and all the pilots was low time pilots 50H or less flight time or had no to less than 10H training. This is not told on the Internet to potential buyers.

So RAF does not need to change there market approach, the FAA must change the experimental law in America to the same as SA , they will have much less accidents and less people killed in gyros or experimental aircraft. RAF has promoted training from the start, but the arrogant pilots in the US believe you don't need training in any gyro or exp.

The RAF is a save , well designed , fun to fly gyro…… yes it takes longer to learn to fly , but that does not make it unsafe or dangerous. It also takes longer to learn to fly a tail dragger that a 150 and they are both fixt wing planes!!!!! J

This is the big problem.........

[t-bird]

Hi Saraf

Thanks for the reply

You did not answer this point :

Conversion and training takes longer on a RAF than other gyro’s

How long does it take to do your conversion on the RAF ?

As you guys are the only one’s training it would be easy to do the maths.

Split it between:

pilots who have never flown before

3- axis pilots

Trike piloits

And other gyro pilots

[saraf]

pilots who have never flown before - Min of 35 to 40h

All depends on the type of person, I can not tell you that a 3 axis guy will take 20H of 10H or a microlight guy will take 15 or 19h. Depends on the pilot how he flies and how fast he learns.

You can have a guy that have flown 1000H in 3 axis and he will learn in 15 to 20h and you will have a guy that has 1500h that will learn in 30 to 40h

It normally takes a student 35 - 40H of training. 10H of training in any gyro is not enough according to me, and this is only according to me.

You for instance will not take long, you have gyro experience and you will learn to fly the RAF much faster that other guy's.

Other thing, we charge a flat training fee and not per Hour. So if any body thought that we are trying to make money and that is the reason for the 30 to 40H they have it all wrong..... (this also have been said by many)

I was a microlight pilot with 200H before I started training on the RAF, it took me 30H and I went solo. to give you an indication.

Regards

[saraf]

One Question I have:

Why does eveyone want to learn in the shortest possible time to fly??????

Is is beacuse the instructors charge per hour???

I personly would like to have more training and get more expierance with training in any aircraft so that I know I will and can fly safely.

[DieselFan]

Other thing, we charge a flat training fee and not per Hour. So if any body thought that we are trying to make money and that is the reason for the 30 to 40H they have it all wrong..... (this also have been said by many)

Interesting approach, how much? Personally before getting into trikes, I looked for weeks at the various Gyros, and my money was on the RAF it seemed best bang for your buck (albeit with a Subaru motor ), I then heard about many negative reports which need to be dissected as most pointed to it's too finicky for low time pilots and the rotor angle of attack was too low inclined to tip forward.

Still the stats you mention are not common knowledge so perhaps RAF should do a bit of a promo similar to what Morph suggested? It is in the RAF's best interest at the end of day.

[saraf]

I then heard about many negative reports which need to be dissected - You heard, that is where the problem is.

Allot of guy's hear allot of stuff and was informed of a lot of BS about the RAF that is not true.

it's too finicky for low time pilots and the rotor angle of attack was too low inclined to tip forward. - Where do these people that told you this get their info?????? Gees. I Will put money on this that the people that told you this or informed allot of people of this has never flown in a RAF , or has not RAF experience at all, but still they want to tell everybody everything about it.

Like I said, go and see for yourself if all this Neg talk about the RAF is true, you will be surprised.

[saraf]

O yes R17 000 for training. includes up to 45h of dual training.

[t-bird]

I personally feel that you only learn to fly when you are solo. It helps to go Solo ASAP.

I would like to know why a pilot with 1000 3-axis hours takes 15-20 hours to solo on a RAF?

[Cali]

I personally feel that you only learn to fly when you are solo. It helps to go Solo ASAP.

I would like to know why a pilot with 1000 3-axis hours takes 15-20 hours to solo on a RAF?

I think it was just an example T-Bird

[GR8-DAD]

I personally feel that you only learn to fly when you are solo. It helps to go Solo ASAP.

I would like to know why a pilot with 1000 3-axis hours takes 15-20 hours to solo on a RAF?

t-bird, for interest sake, what are the comparitive figures/estimates for the ELA or Magni gyros, considering I do not fly any of these and have no intention to either.