Beekos there has been some insistance elsewhere in the forum that us more quiet fellows submit posts I now came up with a question.
I am considering the option of not buying a trike outright but to go into a co-ownership?
However, I am sure the relationship between the partners must be well managed lest there be serious conflict.
Hold on, here comes the question . . .
What are the things/issues that must be sorted out or clarified between potential co-owners before venturing into such an adventure.
I would appreciate input from those who have gone this route and/or opinions regarding this.
ADVICE/OPINIONS ON CO-OWNING A TRIKE
This is of absolute importance. If the rules are not set out clearly and unambigously in the beginning, you will potentially have serious problems later on. A loose verbal agreement is a problem, and will llead to an disaster.Some of them has me thinking that a written (and I hate saying this) lawyerised contract may be the way to go
Regards.
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ForensicFlyer
- Solo cross country
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:31 pm
- Location: Hartbeespoort, NorthWest Province
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And building one...
You know - I like this forum.
I also considered this as an option, and wondered about many things.
I even considerd getting one or two (or more) partners and building a kit.
So my mom posed the question of what you do if someone is LAZY!
So here's what I came up with - albeit only in the rough coal (no diamond) form...:
1. The partners each contribute the same share (25% each if there are 4) for the purchase of hte kit, up-front.
2. The building hours are logged and recorded accurately, and - depending on who spent what hours - the ownership is adjusted accordingly.
3. The flying hours are recorded and logged accurately (of course) and reviewed annually. The person with the LEAST flying hours gets greater ownership.
4. The insurance and all further (repetitive) costs are divided in accordance with this dynamic annual ownership, so the less you own, the less you pay, but.
5. The contribution also affects ownership, so if you skip insurance payments, you sacrifice ownership.
6. In event of an accident, the pilot that flew pays the excess.
Mechanical respnsibility MUST be shared, so that everyone inspects, services and maintains the aerie, lest someone ends up LAZY and doesn't contribute.
Also, there should not be only ONE mechanical (responsibiluty) partner, since this will result in the others just assuming the plane is perfect.
This way, things could be quite well balanced.
So, what I am proposing is NOT fixed ownership with many arguments, but rather a constant set of opportunities to alter that in your favour or otherwise.
Now - the percentages could be broken down further, as follows:
50% goes to (is divided equally) ownership based on purchase price
35% goes to ownership based on building hours contributed
10% goes to financial contributions made over lifetime, annually
5% goes to flying hours per annum
Finally, there are 4 weekends per month (roughly).
Each pilot "Gets" the plane for one week or weekend end in every four.
If the weather is bad inhis time - tough takkies!
If he WANTS to fly on another week or weekend, he must trade or buy that weekend at a pre-determined price.
Of course there coudl also be 2-week or one-month blocks. Whatever the partners may decide...
This turns the plane into some kind of time-share deal.
Of course - as was already stated - this must all be lawyered down!
Just my little contribution.
Any thoughts?
Stan.
I also considered this as an option, and wondered about many things.
I even considerd getting one or two (or more) partners and building a kit.
So my mom posed the question of what you do if someone is LAZY!
So here's what I came up with - albeit only in the rough coal (no diamond) form...:
1. The partners each contribute the same share (25% each if there are 4) for the purchase of hte kit, up-front.
2. The building hours are logged and recorded accurately, and - depending on who spent what hours - the ownership is adjusted accordingly.
3. The flying hours are recorded and logged accurately (of course) and reviewed annually. The person with the LEAST flying hours gets greater ownership.
4. The insurance and all further (repetitive) costs are divided in accordance with this dynamic annual ownership, so the less you own, the less you pay, but.
5. The contribution also affects ownership, so if you skip insurance payments, you sacrifice ownership.
6. In event of an accident, the pilot that flew pays the excess.
Mechanical respnsibility MUST be shared, so that everyone inspects, services and maintains the aerie, lest someone ends up LAZY and doesn't contribute.
Also, there should not be only ONE mechanical (responsibiluty) partner, since this will result in the others just assuming the plane is perfect.
This way, things could be quite well balanced.
So, what I am proposing is NOT fixed ownership with many arguments, but rather a constant set of opportunities to alter that in your favour or otherwise.
Now - the percentages could be broken down further, as follows:
50% goes to (is divided equally) ownership based on purchase price
35% goes to ownership based on building hours contributed
10% goes to financial contributions made over lifetime, annually
5% goes to flying hours per annum
Finally, there are 4 weekends per month (roughly).
Each pilot "Gets" the plane for one week or weekend end in every four.
If the weather is bad inhis time - tough takkies!
If he WANTS to fly on another week or weekend, he must trade or buy that weekend at a pre-determined price.
Of course there coudl also be 2-week or one-month blocks. Whatever the partners may decide...
This turns the plane into some kind of time-share deal.
Of course - as was already stated - this must all be lawyered down!
Just my little contribution.
Any thoughts?
Stan.
Stan Bezuidenhout
IBF Investigations South Africa
"I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it!"
IBF Investigations South Africa
"I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it!"
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DarkHelmet
- Toooooo Thousand
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- Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 10:12 am
- Location: Jukskei Park - Randburg
I would most certainly consider partnering in a trike (when the time comes 
) depending on the initial outlay and my estimated flying hours. The initial outlay would be one of the biggest deciding factors for me. If I had the opportunity, for example, to partner in a Demonic GT, I would most certainly consider it as I could not justify the R300k outlay for my estimated available hours for flying. If however I was to invest in a decent 582 for around R100k then I would most probably buy it outright. Its all about cost vs benefit. Another factor obviously is the availability fo the trike as, I guess, the majority of recreational flying happens on a weekend. One would need to agree some sort of roster with your partner. Alternatively, if you both get along, partners could just fly together and alternate in the from seat.
My 2c worth! It is an interesting debate and very relevant to my current thought process about how to enter the sport.
) depending on the initial outlay and my estimated flying hours. The initial outlay would be one of the biggest deciding factors for me. If I had the opportunity, for example, to partner in a Demonic GT, I would most certainly consider it as I could not justify the R300k outlay for my estimated available hours for flying. If however I was to invest in a decent 582 for around R100k then I would most probably buy it outright. Its all about cost vs benefit. Another factor obviously is the availability fo the trike as, I guess, the majority of recreational flying happens on a weekend. One would need to agree some sort of roster with your partner. Alternatively, if you both get along, partners could just fly together and alternate in the from seat.My 2c worth! It is an interesting debate and very relevant to my current thought process about how to enter the sport.
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Fairy Flycatcher
- The sky is all mine
- Posts: 478
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:17 pm
- Location: In the sky or under the trees - Durban
Trikes very rarely have commerial value, its just plain fun! This, I guess, makes it quite different from a standard PPL syndicate.
We have a couple of shared aircraft at our airfield, and it works very well. There are far too few pilots who fly often anough to justify a single owner aircraft.
The thing with any engine, it has to work, especially a 2-stroke (but also a 4-stoke). If it stands it will sooner or later have brittle seals, rusted cranks etc. If it works it goes on almost forever. We have one 503 on the school, which we finally replaced at about 1300 hours, purely because it felt a bit old, and now its mounted on a singe seater
But we have also had 2 engine failures recently, of engines which have stood for too long. Partners make sense!
If you have a partener in your aircraft, the additional flying hours benifit both, but as with anything, people have different expectations, and the contract is not a way of controlling, but just a simple way of making sure that you both understand each other's expectations and accommodate them.
We have a couple very simple rules for partnerships. Every hour you fly, you put your own fuel and put R 100 in per hour in a maintenance kitty.
The monthly fixed costs (such as hangarage) are shared evenly, as its oportunity costs more than anything.
Any cost over and above the maintenance kitty is split based on hours flown, and not % ownership. (BUT, if you break it you pay)
You pay Zwelake to wash your plane and maneuvre it around, and we do your basic care and maintenance.
We have a couple of shared aircraft at our airfield, and it works very well. There are far too few pilots who fly often anough to justify a single owner aircraft.
The thing with any engine, it has to work, especially a 2-stroke (but also a 4-stoke). If it stands it will sooner or later have brittle seals, rusted cranks etc. If it works it goes on almost forever. We have one 503 on the school, which we finally replaced at about 1300 hours, purely because it felt a bit old, and now its mounted on a singe seater
But we have also had 2 engine failures recently, of engines which have stood for too long. Partners make sense!
If you have a partener in your aircraft, the additional flying hours benifit both, but as with anything, people have different expectations, and the contract is not a way of controlling, but just a simple way of making sure that you both understand each other's expectations and accommodate them.
We have a couple very simple rules for partnerships. Every hour you fly, you put your own fuel and put R 100 in per hour in a maintenance kitty.
The monthly fixed costs (such as hangarage) are shared evenly, as its oportunity costs more than anything.
Any cost over and above the maintenance kitty is split based on hours flown, and not % ownership. (BUT, if you break it you pay)
You pay Zwelake to wash your plane and maneuvre it around, and we do your basic care and maintenance.
-
RV4ker (RIP)
- The Big Four K
- Posts: 5386
- Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 7:48 pm
- Location: The Coves & FAVB
UJ
Email it to me(george @ gbfs . co . za). I will host it on a site and post a pic here. I also have a truck load of these sheet's. Been in couple syndicates. Worked very well for me until the need changed. Better to have a share in any aerie, than H&F if you fly. If you don't fly there is no point. I have seen so many aircraft that just sit in the hangar and they rot away. Try to get owner to let you fly it - Never as it his pride and joy, but aeries were built to fly.
Herewith my 2c. (Never owned a trike, but have owned 3 axis & bliks in syndicates - same priciples different numbers)
Know how to dissolve the partneship before you start. He only your best mate till he bonkes your wife or breaks your plane.... 
Make sure the partners finances are secure. It not big money when buying ML's, but if you buying a cheap heap that will require maintenance and partners don't have access to cash to pay the bills you not gonna fly or you gonna end up footing the bill. Once we used to "Fly in Arrears and Pay in advance" Having a small deposit from each partner also helps..
Divide the hrs available by the hrs you wanna fly. (Eg on average weekend you can maybe fly 8-10hrs (Late fri, Early Sat, Late Sat, Early Sun, Late Sun). You wanna fly 6 hrs EVERY weekend then buy your own. Wanna do 2hrs a weekend this is for you. I would say that going more than 4 would be a difficult exercise, possible, but difficult. Budget will also dictate the number of partners.... New 450 will need a couple guys(4) who could almost buy a 582 on thier own...
Finance is not a great idea as this increases costs and admin significantly... (Insurance, surety etc)
CC's are easy and cheap and can help with the admin as a new partnership agreement does not have to be drawn up every time a partner changes. (PS Trusts within reason can now also own CC's)
Petro card in name of cc for fuel is a nice idea, but beware of abuse... (fill my car/lawnmower and try to get partner to foot bill and maybe even push mover). Reason for card is then each partner is billed on hr basis rather than fuel and kitty bill. I alwys fill the aerie (blik) once i flown, but often have to fill before I fly as well. Net effect is I foot fuel bill for others. Not a big deal as get's resolved once the annual costs are split on hrly basis, but you be surprised how these tend to esculate over time.... (been there done that got the T)
Location... If one has easier access than others he may tend to fly more and others "feel" they are subsidising his flying... again Not a big deal you be surprised how these tend to esculate over time.... (been there done that got the T) Establish well before the time how hrs flown will be costed. It in all's best interest to get max hrs as this makes monthlies cheaper, but if you fly 1 hr a month and your mate flies 10, your cost is gonna be significantly higher if all you do is pay for fuel and divide the monthlies by number of partners... I had a very involved linked spreadsheet we used to use to ensure that wear and tear items were costed on hrs and capex issues on ownership ans there was a weighting bias based on hrs flown etc.... Gets very complex if not sorted out CLEARLY beforehand. Those who fly alot wil score if the costs are divided by ownership, but will face the subsidising flight debate often....
Admin - gain Not a big deal but.. VAT turns if VAT reg, CAA liason, AP inspections, insurance, monthly payments, mgt of bank account etc etc etc. I like to give the guy doing it a couple free hrs on the plane which all pay for. They the guys que to do it rather than the rotational basis. If the admin is ship shape the partners know where they stand (cash) and there are no big surprises. Nothing worse than flying a truckload of hrs an then getting a hige bill after 6 months for the insurance, hangarage, hrs etc all in one... (I got one once that was for whole year and was more than R30K ) Was budgeted for, but still a shock when it in one hit....
Maintenance - If one of the partners AP - PAY HIM TO DO IT... (He also pays a share, but that way there are no issues. He treats the aerie as another customer. He gets his MARKET RATE and he not doing you any favours. Conversly you can demand service and he gonna fly it so he make sure it OK)
Gotta go, will add more later if interest.
Email it to me(george @ gbfs . co . za). I will host it on a site and post a pic here. I also have a truck load of these sheet's. Been in couple syndicates. Worked very well for me until the need changed. Better to have a share in any aerie, than H&F if you fly. If you don't fly there is no point. I have seen so many aircraft that just sit in the hangar and they rot away. Try to get owner to let you fly it - Never as it his pride and joy, but aeries were built to fly.
Herewith my 2c. (Never owned a trike, but have owned 3 axis & bliks in syndicates - same priciples different numbers)
Know how to dissolve the partneship before you start. He only your best mate till he bonkes your wife or breaks your plane.... Make sure the partners finances are secure. It not big money when buying ML's, but if you buying a cheap heap that will require maintenance and partners don't have access to cash to pay the bills you not gonna fly or you gonna end up footing the bill. Once we used to "Fly in Arrears and Pay in advance" Having a small deposit from each partner also helps.. Divide the hrs available by the hrs you wanna fly. (Eg on average weekend you can maybe fly 8-10hrs (Late fri, Early Sat, Late Sat, Early Sun, Late Sun). You wanna fly 6 hrs EVERY weekend then buy your own. Wanna do 2hrs a weekend this is for you. I would say that going more than 4 would be a difficult exercise, possible, but difficult. Budget will also dictate the number of partners.... New 450 will need a couple guys(4) who could almost buy a 582 on thier own... Finance is not a great idea as this increases costs and admin significantly... (Insurance, surety etc) CC's are easy and cheap and can help with the admin as a new partnership agreement does not have to be drawn up every time a partner changes. (PS Trusts within reason can now also own CC's) Petro card in name of cc for fuel is a nice idea, but beware of abuse... (fill my car/lawnmower and try to get partner to foot bill and maybe even push mover). Reason for card is then each partner is billed on hr basis rather than fuel and kitty bill. I alwys fill the aerie (blik) once i flown, but often have to fill before I fly as well. Net effect is I foot fuel bill for others. Not a big deal as get's resolved once the annual costs are split on hrly basis, but you be surprised how these tend to esculate over time.... (been there done that got the T) Location... If one has easier access than others he may tend to fly more and others "feel" they are subsidising his flying... again Not a big deal you be surprised how these tend to esculate over time.... (been there done that got the T) Establish well before the time how hrs flown will be costed. It in all's best interest to get max hrs as this makes monthlies cheaper, but if you fly 1 hr a month and your mate flies 10, your cost is gonna be significantly higher if all you do is pay for fuel and divide the monthlies by number of partners... I had a very involved linked spreadsheet we used to use to ensure that wear and tear items were costed on hrs and capex issues on ownership ans there was a weighting bias based on hrs flown etc.... Gets very complex if not sorted out CLEARLY beforehand. Those who fly alot wil score if the costs are divided by ownership, but will face the subsidising flight debate often.... Admin - gain Not a big deal but.. VAT turns if VAT reg, CAA liason, AP inspections, insurance, monthly payments, mgt of bank account etc etc etc. I like to give the guy doing it a couple free hrs on the plane which all pay for. They the guys que to do it rather than the rotational basis. If the admin is ship shape the partners know where they stand (cash) and there are no big surprises. Nothing worse than flying a truckload of hrs an then getting a hige bill after 6 months for the insurance, hangarage, hrs etc all in one... (I got one once that was for whole year and was more than R30K ) Was budgeted for, but still a shock when it in one hit.... Maintenance - If one of the partners AP - PAY HIM TO DO IT... (He also pays a share, but that way there are no issues. He treats the aerie as another customer. He gets his MARKET RATE and he not doing you any favours. Conversly you can demand service and he gonna fly it so he make sure it OK) Gotta go, will add more later if interest. 4 Sale (will trade)
P166S, Jodel, hangar and other odds and sods
Radial - http://tiny.cc/eppqp
Still @ The Coves (Harties) but dream has died
P166S, Jodel, hangar and other odds and sods
Radial - http://tiny.cc/eppqp
Still @ The Coves (Harties) but dream has died
Hi Sponge,
The financial side is quite difficult aswell.
Here is a model I made up and it can work for unequal partnerships.
Calculation done once a year.
Aircraft price R 100,000.00
prime int rate 11 %
partner A capital R 70,000.00
partner B capital R 30,000.00
Total hours flown 1 year 100
EXPENSES for 1 year
PartnerA Partner B
PETROL, OIL,SPARES R 2,200.00 R 1,800.00
HANGER, AP, REG EXT. R 2,800.00 R 3,200.00
TOTALS : R 5,000.00 R 5,000.00
TOTAL EXP. R10 000-00
HOURS FLOWN for 1 year 49 51
COST PER HOUR
INTEREST FOR 1 YEAR R 11,000.00
EXPENSES FOR 1 YEAR R 10,000.00
TOTALS : R 21,000.00
RATE PER HOUR R 210.00
Partner A Partner B
HOURS FLOWN for 1 year 49 51
RATE PER HOUR R 210.00 R 210.00
X TOTALS : R 10,290.00 R 10,710.00
Y PART OF INTEREST 70-30 R 7,700.00 R 3,300.00
Z EXPENSES R 5,000.00 R 5,000.00
X - Y - Z -R 2,410.00 R 2,410.00
This means that partner B owes partner A R 2410.00 .
If one partner stop flying he will at least get 11% on his investment and it will keep him happy for a while and give the other partner a chance to save or get a new partner.Can we please have scrutiny from the "bean counters" on the forum.Is there any thing I missed ?
The financial side is quite difficult aswell.
Here is a model I made up and it can work for unequal partnerships.
Calculation done once a year.
Aircraft price R 100,000.00
prime int rate 11 %
partner A capital R 70,000.00
partner B capital R 30,000.00
Total hours flown 1 year 100
EXPENSES for 1 year
PartnerA Partner B
PETROL, OIL,SPARES R 2,200.00 R 1,800.00
HANGER, AP, REG EXT. R 2,800.00 R 3,200.00
TOTALS : R 5,000.00 R 5,000.00
TOTAL EXP. R10 000-00
HOURS FLOWN for 1 year 49 51
COST PER HOUR
INTEREST FOR 1 YEAR R 11,000.00
EXPENSES FOR 1 YEAR R 10,000.00
TOTALS : R 21,000.00
RATE PER HOUR R 210.00
Partner A Partner B
HOURS FLOWN for 1 year 49 51
RATE PER HOUR R 210.00 R 210.00
X TOTALS : R 10,290.00 R 10,710.00
Y PART OF INTEREST 70-30 R 7,700.00 R 3,300.00
Z EXPENSES R 5,000.00 R 5,000.00
X - Y - Z -R 2,410.00 R 2,410.00
This means that partner B owes partner A R 2410.00 .
If one partner stop flying he will at least get 11% on his investment and it will keep him happy for a while and give the other partner a chance to save or get a new partner.Can we please have scrutiny from the "bean counters" on the forum.Is there any thing I missed ?
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RV4ker (RIP)
- The Big Four K
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- Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 7:48 pm
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If at first you don't succeed, cheat (as opposed to suck harder 
)
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4 Sale (will trade)
P166S, Jodel, hangar and other odds and sods
Radial - http://tiny.cc/eppqp
Still @ The Coves (Harties) but dream has died
P166S, Jodel, hangar and other odds and sods
Radial - http://tiny.cc/eppqp
Still @ The Coves (Harties) but dream has died
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