Tandem vs Side by Side; Perfect vs Ideal.

[FLYNOTE]

We flew the narrow body Magnis back in 1999. Lovely gyros! Extremely manouverable, sporty, fun... But small tanks, a bit cramped and your pax behind you got nailed by the wind with no windscreen to " koes" behind. Lekka for the pilot but a big no- no for mommy. Then the M16 wide bodies and later the M22s with larger tanks , screens for your pax and pods for the trips. No beetles and muggies up the nostrils for mommy anymore but the thing with the helmet spoiling the hair do still continues to be an issue. The big six came and went and enclosed was the way to go. RAF was there and then Xenon and M24...not forgetting the Sycamore tandem. Ah, so here was a new thing...side by side! Mommy is happy as she has more to look at than the back of my head. The space in the cabin is great and all the luxuries boet! The euforia lasts for two Xenons and mommy developes these headaches when you come up with an indecent proposal at night like " how about flying tomorrow"? So now you start weighing up flying mostly solo in a side by side against your " solo in the cockpit" days of tandem flying. Enclosed is non negotiable at this stage/ age. But which is more fun...tandem or side by side? What will ring your bell if you think of the reasons why you want to fly.
Now let the Fundis who have experience of both tell us what the differences are in terms of handeling , speed, manouverability, sociability... What compomises weigh up against each other etc. etc.
I would love to invite the Klopper man himself, my good friend Lennie, to open this one. There is no such thing as the perfect gyro... But how close can one come to the ideal one for your spesific needs an expectations?

[PTKay]

Hi,

I think, you have forgotten about one more option, combining the advantages
of the both standard solutions:

- the 3 seater by Aviation Artur Trendak.
http://www.autogyro.eu/oferta?lang=en

You can order it with just 2 seats, one in the front and one slightly behind,
(if regulations do not allow for 3 seater), and when you fly with your mommy,
you probably will have enough of her luggage to put on the other side to balance.
(Or a substantial picnic basket, if it is just a short flight .)

When yo fly alone, you sit in the middle, perfect view around,
symmetric weight distribution and real "tandem feeling".

These machines are available immediately and get more and more popular
around the world.

[Low Level]

Now let the Fundis who have experience of both tell us what the differences are in terms of handeling , speed, manouverability, sociability... What compomises weigh up against each other etc.

Not a fundi, but a gyro fanatic.

Untill this day I do not know why I ever went for a flip in a gyro. I never liked flying, or even thought about flying. I just once spoke to a gyro pilot friend of mine about gyros. He knew Roelf Palm very well, cause they were involved together with the development of the first Sycamores. He organised a flip for me. I had my intro in the first MT03 in SA, courtesy of Theuns Eloff and Roelf Palm. To be honest, if it was an enclosed, side by side, it is very debatable, and highly unlikely that I would be flying today. The gyroclipse - quoting to Mr Klopper - struck me like big babalas, the views, the way it flew and the wind in the face. I could see, feel and smell hear flying - a total sensory overload. I was hooked from the first second we left terra firma.

When we saw the first red Xenon at Rhino park many moons ago, this same friend mentioned something that sticks in my mind till today. He flies gyro for manoeuvrability and the views, top, bottom, left and right. The Xenon - enclosed side by side - doesn't seem to have them.

I've flown in the Xenon, and his words came to mind, and was proven for me to be correct. I didn't like the experience. It was kind of a Mercedes ride, and that is not why I fly. I still haven't had the luxury of flying any other side by side, although I sat in an M24, therefore my opinion is based on the Xenon. Although a great gyro, it is not a gyro in my sense of mind, but then, to be honest, even at my age, I stil prefer a suberbike over a dualsport or cruiser, and I will much rather drive a GTi than a Mercedes. Even on cross country trips, my GPS track looks like a drunken, totally lost dude had the sticks. Flying straight and level - that is for geese migrating in winter. I like to see, feel and explore while I fly.

Just to justify my comments further. I bought my Sycamore six years ago in Pietersburg, and the doors are still in Polokwane. Still haven't went through he effort to fetch them, cause I don't need them - EVER. Gyro is my bike ride in the air.

As they say, different strokes for different okes. Your decision must be based on your application - the 80-20 principle. No use getting something that is suitable for 20% of the time.

What are YOU going to use it for 80% of the time, and why do you fly a gyroplane ?

[Grumpy]

Side by side, Harley of the sky? Haaikona.

[Gyronaut]

We flew ...

I would love to invite the Klopper man himself, my good friend Lennie, to open this one.

I accept the invitation thank you Johan. I wish to apply my mind properly to this one but sadly I am a bit swamped at the moment... Can I get back to you this weekend?
Lots to discuss.

Lets hear everyone's interesting views and opinions in the meantime please?
bbl

[Yoda]

I think in the end it boils down to horses for courses....

Recreational flying = shorter distances=exploring= lower altitudes= slower speeds= open cockpit
Flying to get from A to B = longer distances =High speeds= High altitudes = Enclosed cockpit

I suppose it mostly depends on application, In my case all round visibility is very important. I use the gyro exclusively for farming purposes. Checking waters and finding animals, so the left blind spot in the enclosed side by side is a problem. I also love the feeling of freedom in the open tandem. However, there are a lot of winter days I freeze my off and I wish for the enclosed cockpit... but then the fully enclosed can also get very hot in summer days....

In the end its all a compromise. Its probably a case of what ones personal needs and preferences are...

[THI]

I think in the end it boils down to horses for courses.... Recreational flying = shorter distances=exploring= lower altitudes= slower speeds= open cockpit Flying to get from A to B = longer distances =High speeds= High altitudes = Enclosed cockpit I suppose it mostly depends on application, In my case all round visibility is very important. I use the gyro exclusively for farming purposes. Checking waters and finding animals, so the left blind spot in the enclosed side by side is a problem. I also love the feeling of freedom in the open tandem. However, there are a lot of winter days I freeze my off and I wish for the enclosed cockpit... but then the fully enclosed can also get very hot in summer days.... In the end its all a compromise. Its probably a case of what ones personal needs and preferences are...

So if I can get a tandem (visibility) with a summer and winter canopy that has speed them I'm sorted?

Mmmm...there is one that springs to mind

[Yoda]

So if I can get a tandem (visibility) with a summer and winter canopy that has speed them I'm sorted?

Are you talking Calidus THI? I must admit those look like it might be the best of both worlds. Allround visibility and the option of Winter/summer conopy.
How does that work though? Are the conopies just "clip on?

[FLYNOTE]

Ah ha! " Daars n roering op die kaai"! Still awaiting the klop-klop man who will most certainly enlighten us further and then I would love to hear Altius et Latius Torr drop a penny. The Xenon really is a fantastic gyro and cannot be beaten for space and comfort. Ptkay, the 3 seater is a no- no at our altitude and Summers in my humble opinion. It needs a different powerplant to the RST to get a pilot plus pax and enough fuel somewhere @ 6000ft in the Highveld Summers. The drag price to pay, obviously relating to range, speed and fuelburn in exchange for the " mercedes" space and comfort must be weighed up against the "wind in the hair" Harley of the sky sensation. Xenon was always cool in the Summer due to the protective sunblock application to the cabin roof windows as well as the tinted windscreen. But now we have this 80/20 rule of thumb thing playing a role in the descision making process. Ok, I want speed, manouvreabilty, range, ecconomy, enclosed, one up ... But if the captain wants to go along for a flip she must be able to take a backseat...
Its not the perfect gyro, simply because there aint any perfect gyros out there yet...but methinks it could be the ideal one at this point in time in the life of a 61 year old gyro fanatic.
She will be silver and... will sport a world first for the make in the form of a tinted canopy to block the sun and keep the cabin temps down to comfortable levels.

[THI]

Are you talking Calidus THI? I must admit those look like it might be the best of both worlds. Allround visibility and the option of Winter/summer conopy. How does that work though? Are the conopies just "clip on?

Jip. Not sure about the canopy. I'm sure it will be as simple as a few bolts.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[Vertical Tango]

Hi Flynote,

For the last 6 months I have been looking at the horrible looking single seaters from the States. I remember the fun I used to have flying in the 80's my Quicksilver MX2 at 60 km/h. Flying from Baragwanath to Rietfontein was requiring proper x-country planning, but it was the same fun as to fly JHB to Durban. To come back to your nightmare, which I know is not one anymore as you have probably taken the jump already, is to have 2 gyros. I want to keep my Xenon for its comfort, and have one of those single seaters, completely open, the one you open your toes and see houses in between, that cost no more than R50,000, runs on a 503 or 532. It will beat any local gyro on manoevres, cruises around 55 mph, but who cares, its only for the fun. You will do Tedderfield / Parys like a breeze, have tremendous fun without any instrument, just a radio, and keep the Rolls for the government or go to Cape-Town.
All the best with your new love.

JP

[Baitbird]

Hi Flynote,

For the last 6 months I have been looking at the horrible looking single seaters from the States. I remember the fun I used to have flying in the 80's my Quicksilver MX2 at 60 km/h. Flying from Baragwanath to Rietfontein was requiring proper x-country planning, but it was the same fun as to fly JHB to Durban. To come back to your nightmare, which I know is not one anymore as you have probably taken the jump already, is to have 2 gyros. I want to keep my Xenon for its comfort, and have one of those single seaters, completely open, the one you open your toes and see houses in between, that cost no more than R50,000, runs on a 503 or 532. It will beat any local gyro on manoevres, cruises around 55 mph, but who cares, its only for the fun. You will do Tedderfield / Parys like a breeze, have tremendous fun without any instrument, just a radio, and keep the Rolls for the government or go to Cape-Town.
All the best with your new love.

JP

Best solution.
Hanger space can't be a driving force to justify only 1.
And if you can afford a new enclosed Gyro ( any make) you should be able to add the cheapy ( toy ) easily.

[FLYNOTE]

Nahhh JP, very few wallets can afford two nowadays...so for me its down to the one that should ring the bell at this stage. Checking houses between the toes...no- no!! I take my hat/ helmet off to my good trike flying buddies. Hell boet... I like to see something resembling a pod under my heels. That space between my heels and the houses below with nothing in between in a trike or for that matter an open stick and frame gyro never worked for me. I take note of the scenario and then focus firmly on the horizon up ahead!
Let me tell you something...it takes special guts to fly a trike in windy/ turbulent conditions. I used to marvell at the transluscent whiteness of my knuckles after denting the flybar with my grip in turbulent conditions flying my aerotrike. An open frame and stick gyro will have the same effect on me! I love the smoothness of a gyro in all conditions whatever the weather...in almost all conditions whatever the weather. But now; how does a side by side gyro compare in all weather flying to a tandem gyro? Dames en here, ladies and gentleman... Please welcome to the debate ...mr Len Klopper !! Gooi Lennie dat ons hoor!

[Vertical Tango]

how does a side by side gyro compare in all weather flying to a tandem gyro?

The tandem gyro is definitely less affected by turbulence than the side by side. You have owned the 2 types like me and you should have experienced that as well. The side by side fuselage is partly a wing on its own, therefore will follow somewhat the wake. The tandem is more a vertical knife and cuts through it.

An open frame and stick gyro will have the same effect on me! I love the smoothness of a gyro in all conditions whatever the weather...

An open gyro with no pod will not be affected by turbulence like a trike is. It will fly like your Xenon, or a tandem Magni. It will be a bit lighter and more responsive.
I think that you are starting to regret your Xenon

[FLYNOTE]

Jp, I certainly regret selling every gyro Ive owned cause each one is associated with special places its taken me and the friendships and cameraderie Ive had the priviledge to share with other gyronaughts due to these special machines. Xenon is top of my list. You can fly that thing for hours on end in the greatest of comforts. You can have tea with your missus whilest cruising along sedately. You do not get closer to a chopper than this. I agree that the stick and frame gyro flies like gyros tend to fly but I am refering to my fear of hights! That emptiness between my heels and the houses below The new generation side by sides are to my mind a completely different kettle of fish to the traditional tandem gyros. Once you have mastered the special do's and do nots and can and cannots associated with these animals...
But tandem flying is different. Its not better...its different. Ahhhh wait! I think I have it... Why do the old ballies buy big motorbikes once they retire? And how many slightly senior wives leap up behind their " I have my second breath" hells angel hero at the drop of a hat to roar away into the sunrise every Sunday? Where and why does the sidecar come in the picture