Transponder issue

[t-bird]

Will Misasa represent us on the meeting ?

Subject: Meeting to Resolve Radar Infrastructure/Airborne equipage matter

Dear Colleagues:

As you will be aware the matter of which airspaces will require SSR or PSR or combination thereof or alternatively which airspaces will require aircraft to be equipped with operational Mode A and C transponder remains unresolved. You are invited to a meeting which will hopefully bring this matter to a definite direction if not close it.

In brief, all parties to the meeting will have to contribute to solutions, where some of the major challenges are airspace surveillance for safety and efficiency, airspace capacity, airspace incursions, equipage practicalities/impracticalities, economics, conflicting interests (particularly on economic issues), wider national interests, etc. The current situation of not knowing which airspaces will require which infrastructure/airborne equipment, cannot for obvious reasons be permitted to drag simply because there is no common ground. If agreement becomes difficult to reach, other methods of arriving at the resolution will have to be considered and applied.

The importance of attending this meeting cannot be overemphasised.

In about three days we will be circulating more specific terms of reference for issues to be addressed, in order to channel efforts towards similar goals.

Should have any queries please contact Mr Ronnie Mothusi at 011 545 1065 or 083 635 0018 or mothusir@caa.co.za

The proposed date is 12 April 2006 at 14h00 and the venue will be Garden Court Johannesburg International Airport, 2 Hulley Road Isando.

Regards

S Machobane

[Fairy Flycatcher]

Mike Blyth is going, and a large number of other Aero Club committee members. It affects everyone.

They are taking this very seriously, and have researched it quite well.

Sometimes Aero Club and MISASA aren't too bad

:D :D

[mike2flyfar]

I attended the transponder issue this afternoon which was chaired by the Commissioner. Those present represented the airline industry, ATNS, CAA, Dept Transport, aviation magazines, GA representatives (CAASA I think), the Aeroclub, MISASA and SSSA.

The issue is that the airlines are extremely unhappy about the airspace infringements (and some near misses) by many different types of aircraft including microlights. They are also unhappy about aircraft flying in controlled airspace without transponders.
ATNS use primary radar in the main centres except George. Bloem's radar is very old and needs replacement. ATNS will put new primary radar units into those 2 centres but the problem is that this radar cannot always pick up small aircraft.

The airlines can see aircraft with transponders as can the ATC with their secondary radar.

So they say the answer is to fit transponders to all aircraft flying near to the busy controlled airspaces so that ATC can advise the airliners and other commercial traffic of any infringements (also the a/c with traffic avoidance radar can also see all aircraft with transponders fitted.)

So that is the issue. It's about safety ... and the ailines main concern is a mid air collision.

The problem is we do not want to fit this unnecessary and expensive equipment - especially as most pilots actually never even go near to the main airports. And also the fact that transponders might be old and unused technology in a few years time makes this even more of an issue.

We have to find a solution - in these days of high tech equipment I am sure we can and the Commissioner has acknowleged that there could possibly be a better solution and has given us 2 months to suggest something practical.

Also he did mention in passing that if the transponder issue was forced onto pilots then maybe money could be made available (from where he didn't say) to pay for these to be fitted.
The Aeroclub has agreed to investigate possible solutions. The best thing for us in the short term is to fight against it as hard as we can and that we will do anyway ... however I am not sure if we will succeed in the long run!

So that is it for the moment. ATNS and the airlines went away grumbling.

If anybody has any ideas that are practical and sustainable for all aircarft and can be applied to the whole country then please post it here or get in touch with me.
mike@aviation-engines.co.za

Cheers
Mike

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Thanx for the update mike...

[Arnulf]

Hi,

Who knows......if it can save me from hitting someone, or them me, I am for it. Right now, I doubt it can, but maybe one day

The heavy bliks are fitted with TCAS. If you are fitted with an altitude encoding transponder, you will be visible to them, and possibly save you from being hit by them.

Regards,
Arnulf

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Problem is if there are 30 blips on the Tcas (like ML's & bliks over harties on Sat morning) and big iron departing FALA 06, they will squarely K@K themselves and will start to ignore it and what use is it then....

I am with Demon. Maybe some day, but at moment it only favours big iron. It of no use to ML and even then the reception in some parts of the country is K@K.... Seems BFN and FAGG are the issues?

[Tumbleweed]

What are the costs involved? Can it be regionally enforced where required?

Can't some creative supplier come up with a buyback / upgrade package?

Seems like a great oppertunity here.

[mike2flyfar]

Thanks for all your input. With your input I am sure that we will find a solution that suits us. What I will do is correlate all the info and then get Neil to set up a meeting with the airlines, ATNS and wherever else such as SSSA and GA representatives and try to work something out. Then together we can put a solution forward to the Commissioner.
After reading all the responses, it is clear that ATNS did not have anyone technical with them at the meeting and maybe they are not even consulting anyone technical (crazy I know) because then they might not be talking about the transponders at all but searching for another solution.
The radar reflector idea sounds great and easy to do and inexpensive. The glider guys are also grumpy because they generally do not have enough power (or space on the panels) to operate a transponder.
Time is short but if we take the lead then we are more likely to get what we want.
Have a good flying Easter weekend
Mike

[The Agent]

I say if it's for the safety thing then we need to do it. I don't want to be in a mid air contact sinario.

[Thunderboy]

When we did our radio course with one of the ATC guys he said it would be a nightmare for them if we all had transponders.

What is the weight of these things as well? Will they fit in a microlight.

But I guess, yes if it is deemed safer for the guys on the reef then I'll have one.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

2c (not stirring, just practical)

Seems FAGG and FABL are problem area's. I have flown various bliks (with Mode C TX's) in there plenty times and if they have IF traffic you have to remain below TMA in any case TX or not so what is the point? Also ATC not being difficult, they just following the rules.

The On/Off switch is TX biggest problem. If you gonna bust the TMA for eg you gonna switch it off. The problems they are talking about (unauthorised incursions into controlled airspace) will continue and I don't see how TX will stop them? Human nature. If you make oops (mistake or malicious) and at the prospect of Big K@K turn the thing off, go low and hide... Those who fly outside the law are gonna keep doing it TX or not. Also who is going to enforce the use and fitment of the above, practically? If you operate out of private strip who is going to stop you. ML's can operate out of just about anywhere. Will airstrip owners be responcible for aeries operating out of there without TX? Demon and gang at Rieties have been operating THROUGH the ILS on short finals at FALA for 15+ years. It can be done without these little boxes. The everything that flies must beep theory seems to be the easy (expensive) way out. I spoke to Renier (MGL) some time back about this and he was working on a cost effective solution, but demand was not there and initial tooling costs are huge. I think <R10K was branded about as target price, but that still significant for something that add's no value to the pilot. Mode S can cost as much as R25K, mode C in region of R15K. I got a couple 30 year old KT76's on ebay for R7000, but that excludes installation and antenna, so even bargain hunting is gonna set you back in region of R10,000. Me thinks this is the easy way out. Possibly solution is better communication with pilots regarding the dangers of entering controlled airspace etc....

[skybound®]

Also not to forget that you are still VFR and ATC do not have to provide you with any information to seperate you from another VFR aircraft - even if you are in controlled airspace. So you are not really any safer than you are presently. Well okay it will stop a Boeing from hitting you.

To answer your question on cost - they are in the region of R15-17k for a new entry level one, and about R7-8k on the second hand market.

[Arnulf]

Hi,

Problem is if there are 30 blips on the Tcas (like ML's & bliks over harties on Sat morning) and big iron departing FALA 06, they will squarely K@K themselves and will start to ignore it and what use is it then....

TCAS does not quite work like that, but I supppose that is besides the point in this thread.

Possibly solution is better communication with pilots regarding the dangers of entering controlled airspace etc....

Yessir, very much so. Also very important to make the heavy blik drivers aware of the dangers of straddling out of controlled airspace. There have been communications about that already.

Regards,
Arnulf

[Griffin]

Hi,
TCAS does not quite work like that, but I supppose that is besides the point in this thread.

If the "blips" are not TCAS equiped that is all they will see. The TCAS interrogator will only be receiving Mode A and C responses so all they will be is "blips". Its is different if all the planes were TCAS equiped.

[Arnulf]

Hi Griffin,

If the "blips" are not TCAS equiped that is all they will see.

My understanding of the TCAS system is:

A TCAS provides the crew with traffic information and warnings of potential conflicts with vertical avoidance instructions. TCAS can only detect and indicate other traffic, which are equipped with a transponder. The information displayed is:

1.) The bearing and range of the intruder
2.) The intruder closure rate
3.) The relative altitude difference.

Aircraft with non altitude reporting transponders will have no altitude tags. The TCAS processor assumes these aircraft to be at the same altitude as the receiver.

Regards,
Arnulf