Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

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Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby skybound® » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:06 am

The other topic was locked before could add some more value.

In one of the last posts - it was suggested that you may accept the pax to contribute to fuel. I don't believe that is quite correct based on the response from CAA.
FLIGHT FOR REWARD
1. The Legal Division has been requested to respond to questions raised by AVCOM in respect of issues concerning flight for reward.

2. In the first instance it is necessary to correct a misconception contained in the last paragraph of the request. No SACAA definition regarding reward exists in any of the legislation administered by the Authority. Furthermore, the concept of “reward” is not limited to aviation as such. The said concept is also relevant to other facets of the law, e.g. motor transport.

3. That being the case , one will have ascertain what the general meaning of the word “reward according to authoritative dictionaries “is, and to determine how the courts have interpreted the word in a legal context. The interpretation of the word was considered in Silberman v. Pearl Insurance 1962(3)) SA 3 844(W.) In this regard the Court stated the following principles to be applied in a given situation:
“(1) the reward must be a quid pro quo for the conveyance and not for something else
(2) The reward is a return or recompense made to or received by a person for some service or merit
(3) there need be no approximation of the quality between the payment and the service rendered
(4) Any sum of money, no matter how it is arrived at, which is given as a quid pro quo to the person who undertakes the conveyance of the passenger is a reward within the meaning of the Act and this is regardless of whether it results in a profit to the conveyor or not
(5) The reward need not necessarily consist of money.
(6) A reward need not necessarily be the result of a prior arrangement, but must be for conveyance
(7) The reward must accrue to the person who actually provided the conveyance
(8) It is immaterial whether the reward is given by the passenger himself or by another on behalf of the passenger
(9) Where driver and passenger enter upon a joint venture and hire a car, the cost of which they share, they are “conveying themselves”.

4. In R. Ntsime 19609(3) SA 703(T) the Court found that persons were conveyed for reward in contravention of section 9(1) of Act No 39 of 1930where the accused in the matter had arranged with a number of persons that he would transport them in his motor vehicle on a particular trip provided that they would fill his vehicle’s petrol tank on return and the passengers put in so much petrol as their finances allowed them on return.” The Court held that there was nothing in the word “ reward” which denoted an existing obligation , or some return or recompense for the conveyance of persons of goods in the pursuance of a contract , or that a financial advantage in the form of a profit should be derived from the conveyance.”Claassen –Dictionary of Legal Words and Phrases (Volume 4) at page R-90)

5. In Joubert-LAWSA –Volume 19 (Re-issue) in paragraph 545 at page 353 the following is stated in this regard in an aviation context: “The general rules in regard to what constitutes remuneration or reward …have emerged in a long series of decisions. The concept of remuneration of reward is that of a quid pro quo for the service of piloting or providing the conveyance. The consideration need not be in money, and it need not be commensurate with the value of the service, so that defraying part of the cost (for example by paying for the petrol consumed) could amount to remuneration n or reward...Furthermore, it is not necessary characteristic of remuneration or reward that there be a prior arrangement to provide it in consideration of the service. However, where nothing ids paid or given for the service of piloting or conveying , an arrangement amongst the participants to share the expenses of conveying themselves would not result in the payment of remuneration or reward. Likewise, a rental or other consideration for the mere letting of an aircraft, without providing any service in the piloting thereof in the conveying of passengers therein, would not amount to remuneration or reward.

6.In R. v Burger 1955(4) ()SA 454(C) a hotelier who took guests visiting his hotel on short flights in his aircraft to view the scenery was found to have contravened section2(1) of the International Air Services act1949( Act No 51 of 1949) where the cost of the flight was shared between himself and his guests( LAWSA -Footnote 7 in paragraph 545 at page 353).

7 In the case R. Mainline Distributors (Pty) Ltd 1957 (4) SA 124 (N) the court applied the dictionary meaning of the word “reward” namely “a recompense for services rendered where the word appeared in the definition of “Motor Carrier transportation” in section 1 of the Motor Carrier Transportation Act, 1930(Act No 39 of 1930) Claassen – (Volume 3) at page F-39).

8. The principles set out in the Silverman case as contained in paragraph 3 above, together with the references to the court cases discussed in paragraphs 4, 6 and7 above, illustrates how the issue of reward has to be dealt with in practice.
end of legal opinion.

If you are any the wiser after reading this, then you're smarter than I am.
All I can say, is that PPL's have been flying skydivers since Pontius was a pilot. As long as they do not get paid in money or other "reward" they are not contravening regulations. "Accumulation of hours" in the past has not been seen as reward, and I do not see that there is cause to change the precedent.
Regards
Colin
So looks like if you are both pilots and sharing the cost of the fuel that may be acceptable, but to accept a non flying person to contribute or donate fuel may be putting you on the wrong side of the law.
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby andrepieterse » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:47 pm

I find the idea put forward in case no 5 interesting. To me that seems fair.

However, I do think that if the word "business" comes into the mix you are flying into the proverbial legal murk. For example flying someone to another town to attend to his business there and allowing him to share the rental of the aircraft (even without being paid for your piloting skills) could become very complex if anything goes wrong (or worse, if someone reports you).

But if 3 buddies go hunting and share the rental of the aircraft would that be a problem?
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:41 pm

Stupid question. (It has happened to me often)

You are going flying. At airfield mate or mate to be (complete stranger) asks if he can go along. No problem and off you go. After a couple hrs you return and fill up. HE DEMANDS TO PAY FOR THE FUEL. What do you do. We never agreed for him to pay for anything, it was neither a condition or stipulation before the flight.

You go to watch the Rugga in Durbs. I pay for the plane fuel ATNS etc. When we arrive the other 3 buggers will not let me pay for anything. 1 bugger pays for the boose, 1 bugger for the tickets and transport in Durbs and the 4th pays for the Hotel. Again not agreed before hand, but just works out that way. Usually we would pool all the costs and take a kalula flight down for eg, but I was going down to Durbs in any case.

I take my kids flipping. Their mates want to come along. No problem and 4hrs and 13 kids later I land back on the ground and get invited to braai after braai for the next 4 weeks... Again Braais were not offered or agreed beforehand but in this case only after the flips did we become mates and the flip was thus the direct cause of the "braai" (reward) which cost me nothing.... One of the guys paid for fuel in advance without me knowing. When I arrive to fill up the pomp jockey simply said you still have 20 litres credit :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Can get very silly if you think about it....

These are/were genuine situations....

Similarly
On Friday I am going to fetch my mother. I know there is a guy who is going to ask me to drop him at Airport I am already going to, to collect his aerie and he is going to want to pay for the fuel when we land. Again not agreed and I am going in any case. What is the situation here.... I know the situation is going to come, does that mean I am doing it for the potential reward IF he offers?

It is a very grey area, and some folks believe that merely logging the hrs is REWARD. I have argued that if I don;t log the hrs then would it be OK and was told that it is illegal to "fail to log hrs"... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Can't win..... because there are a few "clever" oukes who will ride on your back. I did a flight for some farmers to inspect farm fire damage and help locate strays after a moer of a fire. no1 mentioned money or anything. Afterwards they passed a hat around to pay for the fuel (7hrs flying was a couple bucks worth of fuel). 1 clever dick says it would be illegal to PAY and quietly pockets the cash... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: Always oukes there to milk the system.

Me
If someone asks me if they can Charter me to fly them somewhere I walk away (especially if they use the word "charter", but if we are going as a group then I have zero issues in defending the situation where we all pay. I get zero benefit from the deal. I don't need the hrs and the costs are often not even fully covered, never mind making a profit (ie flight for reward). My take is that a flight for break even is not a flight for reward. If you "make money (ie there is cash left over after the hrly running costs of the aerie are paid then the balance could be argued were for your "services"). Thus if the aerie uses R500/fuel an hr and the amortised cost is R1500/hr and you fly for an HR IMHO anything less than R1501 is a flight for break even and not for reward. I am opening myself up here, but I think it time that we get some clarity on the matter....) Place yourself in a situation where you charter a flight. Plane costs, pilot costs and profit margin make up the cost of the flight. Pay towards the costs of a flight, there are no pilot costs and no profit margin... Subtle difference but one none the less. problem comes in where guys run genuine back office charters...

Last one (also happened to me)
You get asked to do a mercy flight and folks are adamant they want to pay you afterwards. Again not part of the agreement before hand.

Slightly different. I am holidaying in the Albat and guy runs up and says that his mate been involved in bike accident and needs medical attention or will die. He will pay for fuel is I go now. What do I say? Sorry can't help you (What CAA expects me to say) or do I take him for nothing and it drills a R10K hole in my pocket or do I take the cash (to cover just fuel costs - not all costs) possibly save his life and be prosecuted by CAA because the air ambulance guys get their balls in a knot..... because they lost out on a R40K medical aid payout?

It is a very difficult situation.....
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby Bundy » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:35 am

My 2 cents worth....

Being quite new to the aviation game, I think that trying to lay down legislation to regulate any sort of remuneration or reward( which as you have pointed out above is very difficult to define) will just complicate the matter even further. To me, and according to the current (or at least my current Air Law Manual) the rules are very clear. You as the pilot in command MAY NOT be remunerated for acting in any pilot capacity in an airplane. Period!

IMHO this means that in almost all the cases you have mentioned, technically you are breaking the law and it would be your responsibility to convey that message to the PAX and enforce it.

There is no real simple solution to this dilema as I do not know any pilot in any capacity that has not at some stage accepted some form of remuneration to cover the running costs of a flight.

The Authorities must use their own discretion to take on the guys who are taking advantage of the flaws within this part of the law. There will be a clear difference between the pilot who accepts a contribution towards the flight costs, and the one who make a profit from the flight. ( as you correctly pointed out) The same way a Traffic Cop will "let you off" sometimes even though you may have been speeding at the time.

Perhaps, just a small change to the law would be appropriate:

A Pilot in Command may not operate an aircraft for the purposes of financial gain, the pilot may however accept a financial contribution in any form that will not exceed 50% of the running costs of that paticular flight. Any such payment/reciept must be logged in pilots logbook.

Just an Idea ($$) ($$)
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby Morph » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:11 am

skybound® thanks for that. It is in response to a statement I made here
Morph wrote:You can take people for flips anytime you like at their own risk. If they happen to bring a 25liter fuel or buy you a beer afterwards as a gesture of kindness so be it


It appears you have taken it upon yourself to police my statements lately, gotta make sure it is correct :roll: keeps me on my toes :wink:

I agree with RV4ker, where do you draw the line.

We run a club competition and get a fuel donation, do we refuse

Heksie calls us in to assist in a S&R. She has stated that they cover all fuel costs. Do we refuse

We get invited to fly the Young Falcons at Ysterplaat. During the day we receive coffee, payment? At the end of the day they, the airforce, insist on replacing used fuel.

In the real world, it is impossible to get away from people repaying kindness with kindness.

This borders on the ridiculous.

What is the solution, do not under any circumstances take a PAX up. :roll: :twisted:
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby Morph » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:35 am

skybound® wrote:
FLIGHT FOR REWARD
.. an arrangement amongst the participants to share the expenses of conveying themselves would not result in the payment of remuneration or reward.

Regards
Colin
To add to this ridiculousness, does this mean that two pilots can share expenses to fly somewhere? What if one of the two pilot's is not rated on that aircraft, does that Pilot now technically become a PAX and as such cannot pay towards expenses?
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby Grumpy » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:58 am

Policing it is the problem, and so there will always be confusion.
Take a Bus driver with a PDP, then you get a minibus taxi, has he a PDP,
Then the cockroach taxis, R3 around the block Toyota Corolla........ (**)

Totally illegal as per the Law, but do they care? No,
Neither do the Traffic Departments.......... :shock: :shock:

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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:04 am

Bundy wrote: A Pilot in Command may not operate an aircraft for the purposes of financial gain, the pilot may however accept a financial contribution in any form that will not exceed 50% of the running costs of that paticular flight. Any such payment/reciept must be logged in pilots logbook.
Why 50%. Why not 100% of the costs or at least Fuel and direct operating costs (like landing and ATNS fees - Abroad Like Moz, Zim etc they can be REAL $ numbers). A trike does not cost a lot to run, but a twin turbine for eg costs amost what a windlass does to buy per hr. 50% would leave a huge hole as would the $ landing and handling fees. Also if you fill in $ you could get back waay more than it would cost for say 500l fuel in SA ronts.... Fuel in Efrica costs HUGE bucks and us fly boys are exploited plenty...

I see bateleurs are also facing the problem. They now have a statement out that they can not reimburse anyone who does not have CPL or higher for fuel. Hypothetically if I was asked to fly 6 wild dogs from Pielansberg to Moz it would cost me in region of around R25K before the foreign charges. Because I am not CPL they "can't" reimburse my fuel. Although I am conversationalist, I simply can't afford to foot that bill. net result is those wild dogs will die, because CAA rekons I am benefitting from the 12 hrs fly time I am forced by law to LOG the hrs thus resulting in "reward". My reasons for doing the flight would be purely humanitarian, but few can afford the cash on humanitarian grounds
Bundy wrote: IMHO this means that in almost all the cases you have mentioned, technically you are breaking the law and it would be your responsibility to convey that message to the PAX and enforce it.

There is no real simple solution to this dilema as I do not know any pilot in any capacity that has not at some stage accepted some form of remuneration to cover the running costs of a flight.
....

I don't agree, but let's agree to disagree. The problem is definition of flight for reward. if logging hrs is reward then every flight regardless of nature is for the reward of hrs. That is ridiculous. I last flew for fun maybe 150hrs ago. I fly to get from point A to Point B as quickly as possible. If trains were faster I would Train rather than fly. The "reward is my time". 1 hr each way in plane vs 5.5hrs each way in car and cost of overnight accomodation, food etc. The financial "savings" as opposed to reward to my business are significant given 150'000km a year travel... Do these flights then become "for reward" since the company picks up the fuel bill same way as I would pay SAAA/Mango or Kulula? I think NOT....

Someone needs to clarify the situation with LOGIC not THAT IS THE LAW.... The law has never been tested in court and I think they would batlle to prove for eg that a pilot who was not "building hrs" towards a CPL gained any reward by logging the hrs. On other hand if you are a CPL Hr builder and are trying to get to the magic 200hrs then you could have a problem.

Not a simple solution.

I rekon the solution is cost sharing. Needs to be defined and practical eg given. Problem that exists at the moment would be.
Cost of fuel R500/hr
Insurnace R100
Maintenance R150
Prop Kitty R50
Engine Kitty R150
etc
etc

What are "running costs of an aerie?" Do you include the annuals, only the variables and what about opportunity costs or finance costs. The AA has a rate per km for cars. Why not a rate for aeries approved by CAA? If you get hrs flown x rate by caa then it costs reimbursement. if you get more then for reward... There are simple solutions, but it would mean some folks would have to do a bit of thinking and a little work... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby Tobie » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:51 am

RV4ker wrote:

"My take is that a flight for break even is not a flight for reward. If you "make money (ie there is cash left over after the hrly running costs of the aerie are paid then the balance could be argued were for your "services")."

I agree with RV4ker. People share running cost on almost everything from boating to travelling by car. What makes recreational aviation really that different. As long as it remains equal or below the running cost of the craft no reward takes place. :?
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby andrepieterse » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:18 pm

I agree Tobie. I think the laws are there for those who abuse the system and try to side step regulations pertaining to operating aircraft for financial gain (commercially).
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby Tumbleweed » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:46 pm

I see nothing wrong with someone chucking a few bucks into a hat to counter the bar festivities.

But amongst the muddy waters, there's oppertunists, amongt them cpl's or instructors crying because someone is depriving them of a liveihood, not realising that its no longer a pleasure flip if they don't fly with mates and insurers repudiating a claim.

The biggest risk is the court interpreting the definitions of legal flight between the pilot's compliance with the CAA's definition and who the insurance attorneys can find to comensate their payment to a beneficiary.

Thats why i believe an indemity form is little more than advising pax that they're climbing on at their own risk.
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:01 pm

FYI
REIMBURSEMENTS - PLEASE NOTE:

It has come to the attention of the Board of Directors that there is some uncertainty whether reimbursing member pilots for fuel constitutes flying for reward and the legal consequences thereof. We have briefed an advocate on the matter and await his opinion.
In the meantime, requests for assistance continue to be received by The Bateleurs. Accordingly we have decided that until we receive counsel’s opinion, we will be able to sanction flights on the following basis only –

1. If you have a commercial pilot’s licence, we WILL be able to reimburse your fuel costs, if requested;
2. If you have a private pilot’s licence, we will NOT be able to reimburse your fuel costs.

Please bear this in mind when you receive a request for a volunteer pilot from The Bateleurs. We will update you when we receive counsel’s opinion.
Thank you for your understanding.
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby JvTonder » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:05 pm

I agree with RV4ker, unfortunately the law is the law no matter how silly we think it is, and I do think it is silly.

Being a student I have not yet taken anybody for a flip but will do so if asked, at that stage if someone asks me to go for a "flip" I will say put fuel in and we can go, I do not have the money to pay for flips and as I am only flying for pleasure and the love off flying I see nothing wrong with that. Must ad that at this stage only friends and family has asked me, don't know why ## ##
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby skybound® » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:22 pm

Morph wrote:It appears you have taken it upon yourself to police my statements lately, gotta make sure it is correct :roll: keeps me on my toes :wink:
:) Sorry Morph - was not meant to be a picking on you.

I think the waters are extremely murky, and the real life situations that have been portrayed are testimony to that. To be ridiculous - what if the oke you flew buys you a beer the next week and says - Hey this is for the wonderful flight you took me on - Damn - he just made you break the law over a beer :lol:

Anyone have any idea what the regs are in other countries regarding this issue?
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Re: Reward/Remuneration for flying a Pax

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:18 pm

UK allows cost sharing. IIRC Irv Lee did a little piece on it a while back. But then again they have an IMC rating :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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