BCAR-T Questions

[braam hechter]

Hi All.

Darren, thanks for the kind words. At the CAA we are trying to nourish grass roots flying, whilst still keeping it safe. Anybody is welcome to pm me with specific questions after having done some kind of homework. (No fishing expeditions please).

Johan, i don't think they will come to take the Xenon. It is in the process of being type accepted according to the South African legislation, Part 24. The type acceptance from the French, German, Irish, Norwegian and other authorities were also presented with supporting documents. As you, Alan, Jean Pierre and the others owners know, we have started the process in 2006 and are now seeing the goal posts. During this time we have established 2 CAA approved AMO's with special procedures, authorized to sign out the aircraft as factory built. We have also initiated and started partnerships with various flight schools to improve gyro training around the country. Discussions was held with TFASA (Test Flight Academy of South Africa) for the training of test pilots as well as the structured testing of the Xenon. Petrie van Zyl, as a military trained, and one of a few of the Experimental test pilots in the world, (see http://www.setp.org), did our initial testing. Working with Wagtail who has flow approx 5000 hrs worth of commercial hours also taught us many things. (All of this was done to ensure safe operations and a proven track record whilst showing compliance to the required legislation) All and all there has been a vast array of education carried out and we should start seeing the fruit there off shortly. The commercial ventures in the pipeline should have some valuable spin off's for the recreational users.

Greetings and operate safely
Braam Hechter

[FLYNOTE]

Nou kan ek weer rustig slaap en die "booby trap" van my hangar deur verwyder.

[Gyronaut]

Hi All.

Johan, i don't think they will come to take the Xenon. It is in the process of being type accepted according to the South African legislation, Part 24. The type acceptance from the French, German, Irish, Norwegian and other authorities were also presented with supporting documents. ...

Braam Hechter

Am I missing something or are the Xenon's flying here then registered as "home builds" at present while awaiting type acceptance? Part 24 regulates Non-Type Certified Aircraft no?

I am SO frustrated by all this...

What are the implications of registering an M24 as a 'home build' and then using it for training? Is that allowed?
HELP? I wanna fly it...

[Jabbanaught]

Hi All.

Johan, i don't think they will come to take the Xenon. It is in the process of being type accepted according to the South African legislation, Part 24. The type acceptance from the French, German, Irish, Norwegian and other authorities were also presented with supporting documents. ...

Braam Hechter

Am I missing something or are the Xenon's flying here then registered as "home builds" at present while awaiting type acceptance? Part 24 regulates Non-Type Certified Aircraft no?

I am SO frustrated by all this...

What are the implications of registering an M24 as a 'home build' and then using it for training? Is that allowed?
HELP? I wanna fly it...

Len , VERY EXPENSIVE frustration that you are facing here , Something does not add up !

[FLYNOTE]

Julle los net my blerrie Xenon uit ! Booby trap back on hangar door !! . Touch that lock and you get taken out in one foul swoop !!
Hell Len, dis nie lekker nie. Surely there is an answer/solution to all of this? What do you guys know that we don't know. What exactly is the difference between Xenon and M24 as far as the registration process or whatever is concerned ?
Can the 24 not follow the same route as xenon did?
Is the Calidus ok'd ? Also a lovely gyro. Anyone ordered one yet ?
I wanted to buy a Xenon over 3 years ago but according to the factory all was not in place for it to go on sale in SA yet.I am however glad it worked out that way because the models have improved so much since then.
I really am not into all the red tape and what is and is not required.If I buy the gyro I take it that all is in place and that I can fly it when it gets here?
What went wrong between ordering and delivering of the 24 ?
I can just immagine your frustration and I am bleeding with you.Keep us informed.
I really really hope with all my heart that you guys will be airborne soon.
In the meantime ... los julle net my blerrie Xenon uit !

[Learjet]

hey Len, here's the solution... all you need is a sticker and your waiting will be over

[Gyronaut]

HAHA Dave, Good one!!

It does appear that a different set of rules apply to the Xenon that apply to the rest of us yes. Perhaps Braam can elaborate a little clearer on this for me without all the mumbo-jumbo about the law? What is the simple explanation for the fact that the Xenon is happily flying but the M24 is not?

Len

[braam hechter]

Hi Len,

Your question, "Perhaps Braam can elaborate a little clearer on this for me without all the mumbo-jumbo about the law? What is the simple explanation for the fact that the Xenon is happily flying but the M24 is not?"

I think with all the previous mails etc. i have tried to educate and put forward the different processes that can be followed. (The mumbo-jumbo of the legislation unfortunately needs to be complied with) The simple answer is, we made appointments, followed the required process and delivered the required information as and when it was requested. There was also a direct link established between the factory (Raphael Celier) and the Certification Division at the CAA, for additional manufacturer confidential information.

Greetings

Braam

[THI]

Just to make sure I understand. There are a couple of “ways”/categories to register my gyro in South Africa:

1. Homebuilt
2. NTCA
3. BCAR-T

Can I choose which category I want to register my gyro?
When must this decision be made?
Why can’t Len just register his M24 as a homebuilt, get his ATF, fly and then apply later (when all the red tape stuff is taken care of) for his NTCA?

No?

[Grumpy]

THI, A million bucks and register it as a homebuilt?
I think not hey?

[Jabbanaught]

So , Len can you find out where is the M24 in this process ?

[Gyronaut]

Jabi, I understand that the BCAR-T certification is ongoing in the UK. (how long is a piece of string?)
Absobloodylutely Grumpy, a BAR's worth of aircraft and I am forced to register it as a 'home build'? I think NOT!
THI - I am told once it is registered as a home build you cannot re-register it. Klaar.

Ok so as I understand it then... "(2) Only those aircraft, of which the type, the local or foreign manufacturing organization, the local assembling organization or agent, or the build standard has been approved by the Commissioner,may be built or imported and flown within the Republic".

Right.

My information is that, with regard to the M24 and as per Braam's post:

Appointments were made and meetings held with CAA's Certification Division
Information was delivered as requested including Compliance Check List (I am told the paperwork weighs more than the machine)
Magni's own appointed Certification Engineer has been in constant communication with CAA's certification division

Now I am told that a "resolution" has been taken that SACAA has to establish its own Compliance Finding to Approve the Magni M24 Gyro or they are insisting on BCAR-T. (Anyone know what a Compliance Finding is?) I assume this was also done with Xenon or are they registered differently to what we are trying to do since we know the Xenon is not BCAR-T compliant?

I am still confused and would still like simple answers to the following 3 questions ...

1. What exact standards did the Xenon comply with in order to obtain approval and why are they apparently different for the M24?
2. What type acceptance exactly does the Xenon have to which the M24 must strive?
3. Why do aircraft such as the RAF, M24, Calidus etc. have to comply to BCAR-T but the Xenon doesn't? (Remember RAF's were grounded for 18 months while they were forced to get BCAR-T BEFORE the Xenon was given an ATF)

I am losing thousands of rands in interest (and patience) and have decided it is time to act if these questions are not answered adequately. Perhaps my lawyers should go have tea with the powers that be at CAA? Will be cheaper than monthly interest on a bar.

Gatvol gewag!

[flying-i]

Does not look like a very informative or convincing reply from Braam.
I think the Magni agent should also come on the forum and tell his story? I mean he is actually the responsible one when it comes to delivering your aircraft to you.

Those are three simple questions, the answers of which should be very informative.

[Grumpy]

I don't understand the whole process at all, but it does seem as if there is a 'snake in the grass'.

[Low Level]

Please help me to understand.

How does an agent sells a gyro - or anything else for that matter - to a client when it is not approved? More than that, this is not a first time for the agent, so he should now the ups and downs with first of type, or am I missing something.

.....and now the client has to fight this war cause he's the one losing the money.