First Impressions

[OzGyro]

Hi All

Just a quick couple of photo's of one of the more affordable 2 seat options from back in OZ.
Specs are as follows -

Engine = Subaru EJ25(160 Hp) (Pictured with Subaru EA 81 110Hp Rally Motor and Rotax G/Box)
Rotors = 28 or 30 Foot Composite
Redrive = Autoflight
Prop = 4 Blade 76 inch
Fuel = 80 litre capacity
Empty Weight = 300kg approx
Climb = >1500fpm (sea level, pilot only)
Cruise = 60/65kts @ 20Lph approx
Price = + - R375,000

Question is, does this type of machine appeal to the local market? Any comments and feedback greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Darren

rsz_check_tail_gyro_002.jpg (52.9 KiB) Viewed 2919 times

[Learjet]

OK I'll bite...

the high drag, side-by-side open cockpit and windshield configuration, high thrust-line and poor excuse for a horizontal stab immediately reminds me of the "Ventus Leopard gyro" - a SA gyro design that came onto the scene some years ago. :twisted
Apparently this gyro is not fondly remembered. Although some pilots that tried to fly them are.

Looks can be deceiving though... and hopefully the Australian gyro has better PIO manners than it's African doppelganger

[OzGyro]

Hi Learjet

Ok I have to bite back, yes you are right in regards to the high drag side by side configuration and high thrust line as well. This style of gyro actually flys very well, there are literally hundreds of simiarly designed machine flying all over Oz for recreational purposes and a lot also used in mustering operations as well. As you said looks can be decieving and we can go on and on for hours debating thrustline issues. Magni gyro's are exactly CLT but as we all know they fly well. PIO is a completely seperate issue - PIO is pilot induced occilation and can be made to happen in almost any gyroplane, no machine is completely immune from it, however I do agree that some are more prone to it happening than others. We can debate the horizontal stab issue for ever and a day if we like as well, great gyro pilots can fly and fly well without them. Good horizonatl stabilisers just make life a lot simpler and no doubt safer for the lesser like pilots like myself.
Im just struggling to come to terms with the ridiculous cost of gyro flying in SA, you have some of the best facilities and countryside in this great country yet for whatever reason the price of fying gyro's is almost beyond reach of the average guy. Gyro flying in its essence is as we know one of the most enjoyable forms of aviation and it should also be one of the most affordable. Im just looking for options to get more gyro's into the air at a price we can all afford, but definately without sacrificing safety. Sure it aint a Magni, ELA or MTO but believe me when I say its still a hell of a lot of fun, and still guaranteed to put a smile on your face and for me thats what this great sport is all about.

Cheers
Darren

[tandemtod1]

I don't think that looks are decieving, actually I think that Learjet has got it spot on with his observations regarding this thing. If you want to see what happens when a high drag cockpit overcomes the drag of the rotor, then google "gyro accidents" and you will see that this design is likely to turn upside down so fast that you won't have time to kiss your butt goodbye. This type of accident is 100% fatal so PIO in this craft will be the least of your worries. And if you want an all day debate on thrust line relative to the vertical centre of gravity and the size of the horizontal stabiliser, then you will need to find someone who is ill informed on the subject because that debate is long over and no amount of sales talk and low prices will turn a bad design into a good one. For definitive information on the subject, read NASA sponsored paper by Chuck Beaty and Ralph Taggart and discount the ravings of that super salesman LeFleur at RAF. The EJ series motor is a good power plant but damned heavy. Usually around 250lbs installed weight and mounted that high on the mast can only be a recipe for disaster. The Magni by the way calculates out at 2 inches above CLT and not centre as you say, but it has a generous stab to maintain stability. Learjet was being kind when he called this one a ppor excuse for a stab.
Hope I didn't bite too hard.

[saraf]

Tandemtod1.

What is your flying experience in gyros?

[Low Level]

Just an observation regarding horisontal stabs, and this is my mechanical mind, not flying mind talking. Horisontal stabs in side by side gyros and single seaters tend to be much smaller than those in tandem gyros. A while ago I saw a RAF for the first time in Witbank in real life. It then striked me how short and stubby the gyro is.

Now the laws of motion. The tendancy for a distibuted mass along a long horisontal axis will be much greater to start ossilating than for a mass centered around the vertical axis. Hang a ruler at it's centre and give it a nick at the end. Now do the same with your eraser with the same weight.

As I said - just an interesting observation.

[tandemtod1]

To saraf
This discussion revolves around the longditudanal stabilitiy imparted by a correctly sized horizontal stabilizer. If you want to discuss flying experience, start a new thread instead of trying to hijack this one.
To Low Level,
Sir Isaac Neuton didn't factor aerodynamic drag into his laws of motion so they are not aplicable here. Aerodynamic drag increases with speed which has the effect of moving the centre of gravity which is one of the reasons you need an effective horizontal stab. It prevents you from falling on your face from high levels. Get you rubber and ruler to fly and then we can discuss how to make them retain stability.

[Learjet]

Ok before this thread turns into yet another horizontal stab debate, (and I apologise if I'm guilty of opening this can of worms) the only reason I mentioned it was that the Australian gyro design reminded me of the Vetus Leopard. Within the context of it's suitability to the S-African market this is not about the stab debate, but rather drawing Darren's attention to the fact that these similarities may present something of a marketing obstacle given the Vetus Leopards poor reputation here.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

What it called and do they have a website....

Tandem is KAK for social and I fly a tandem

I rekon more will get involved it "cheaper/safe" alternatives are presented.... since a Gyro is more a social fun flyer than a commuter (although there are exeptions)

just my 2c. (BUT I never been in a gyro)

[t-bird]

Hi Tandemtod1

How many fatal RAF accidents in South Africa compared to other gyros ???

Does not mean that if a Gyro is unstable that you would not be able to fly it.

[Low Level]

BUT I never been in a gyro

Keep it that way, else it's gonna cost you money.

You won't be able to sleep for days.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

BUT I never been in a gyro

Keep it that way, else it's gonna cost you money.

You won't be able to sleep for days.

he he he. I say same about the RV's.....

[OzGyro]

Hi All

Ok it would appear this style of gyro won't be welcomed with open arms in tis part of the world. I hear and even understand the concerns being raised. From what I read and from some opinions here it looks as though I have been taking my life into my own hands. I would like to think I am a very careful pilot and far from the best, however in the small amount of time I have been flying gyro's I can say with confidence that I have probably flown a greater variety of gyro's than a lot of pilots my senior. I have owned 4 seperate homebuilt gyro's and flown a variety of other factory built machines including Magni, ELA, MT and even the RAF2000. I actually owned the second gyro built by the guy who owns and designs the gyro featured in the above picture. I can assure you I would not fly a machine that I considered unsafe, is it as pitch stable as a Magni? The answer is definately NO. However flown within its limits is a rewarding machine to fly. Its no rocket ship but for pure fun value it will certainly put a smile on your face.
It looks as tough I m going to be keeping an eye on the obituary's for the remainder of my stay here in SA as most of my gyro buddies back in OZ fly gyros of very similar design, and while I am at it better top up my own life insurance. Any aircraft be it fixed or rotary wing can bite you in the arse if you dont fly within the limits of said aircraft, and more impotantly within the limits of the pilot.

Tandemtod1 - any chance of giving us a summary of your gyro experience, hours and types of machines flown. I am always open to learning something new.



Cheers
Darren

[Cloud Warrior]

Just when i thought that it was time to get out the popcorn and coke.............

I understand Darren's point here. Most of the gyros flying around Oz are of a similar design to the one he has shown above and in the four years that I have been here I am not aware of any gyro accidents having occurred.

[Jabbanaught]

What it called and do they have a website....

Tandem is KAK for social and I fly a tandem

I rekon more will get involved it "cheaper/safe" alternatives are presented.... since a Gyro is more a social fun flyer than a commuter (although there are exeptions)

just my 2c. (BUT I never been in a gyro)

Think its time that you do get into one , yes it will cost you money , but you as an adventurous Aviator would really enjoy this type of flying , trust me