Navigation Test for Lic

[LarryMcG]

Hi All - instuctors and recently completed students -

How many guys have done or are aware that the part 62 regs require a navigation test - similar to the Flight test / Nav test that a ppl stdent does to complete a Lic?

So, basically, if a student doesnt have a nav test at the end of training, lic shouldnt be issued. This seems to slip passed failrly easily, if the student shows more than 3 hours of dual training on appl for a lic, and Raasa dont follow up, if you show more than 3 hours.

But still, the requirement is there, since part 62 came into effect.

Personally, I think its BS for a trike lic.

Comments??

Lm

[WillemG]

Hi Larry.

Here is how the Reg stands for WCM and CCM categories of the NPL license:

(a) one dual cross-country flight and one solo cross-country flight, each of a duration of not less than 90 minutes flown at normal cruising speed; and
(b) one dual cross-country flight of a duration of not less than 90 minutes flown at normal cruising speed and which includes a full stop landing at a point other than the point of departure.

For Gyro's:

(a) one cross-country flight, whether dual or under supervision, and one solo cross-country flight, each of a duration of not less than 90 minutes, flown at normal cruising speed; and
(b) one cross-country flight, whether duel or under supervision, of a duration of not lees than 90 minutes, flown at normal cruising speed, and which includes a full-stop landing at a point other than the point of departure:
Provided that the cross-country requirement shall not apply in the case of a type rating to be endorsed ‘tethered flight only'.
(2) The cross-country flights, referred to in sub-regulation (1), shall consist of at least three legs.

For LSA's:

(a) one dual cross-country flight and one solo cross-country flight each of at least three legs and of a duration of not less than 90 minutes flown at
normal cruising speed; and
(b) one dual cross-country flight of at least three legs and a duration of not less than 90 minutes flown at normal cruising speed and which includes a full-stop landing at a controlled airport other than the point of departure;
(c) 3 hours of dual and 2 hours of solo circuits and landings at a controlled airport.

Bearing in mind that amendments are regularly made, see the latest issue of the CARS.

If there are any queries regarding this please give me a call:

Willem Grobbelaar
RAASA
011 827 9330
079 349 8946
willem@raasa.co.za
http://www.raasa.co.za

[Gyronaut]

As I have it therefore, in the case of Gyro's (forgive my bias) in summary the requirement is:-

3 triangular cross countries of not less than 90 minutes each, one must be solo and one must include an outlanding.

Correct?

[WillemG]

As I have it therefore, in the case of Gyro's (forgive my bias) in summary the requirement is:-

3 triangular cross countries of not less than 90 minutes each, one must be solo and one must include an outlanding.

Correct?

1 must be solo.
2 must be dual and 1 of these must include a landing at a point other than that of departure.
All of them triangular.

[LarryMcG]

Hi Willem

So, does this mean that the second dual x country is not a nav test, as for ppl students? Or is it stipulated as such, somewhere.

I have spoken to a few senior intructors and flying schools, and there seems to be a lot of ill feeling towards this new regulation, and nobody seems to be able to answer where it has come from, and how it crept into the system.

Not to mention the reg of flights into controlled airspace. How many LSA training aircraft are not fitted with transponders?

Would like to have comments from intructors, and recently completed students, on this matter.

Cheers
LM

[wildthing]

Hi Larry.

The regulation has been in Part 62 since the start of these regulations; it is not a new regulation that crept in somewhere.
I do agree that the way the regulations read it simply states that there are two duals and one solo x country.
However the second x country is intended to be a navigation skills test, it is dual after all so what is different if the instructor on the x country evaluates the student’s navigation skills. IN any event how would an instructor complete the Cross country flight section on the flight test form CA 62-05.16 if they never did a navigation test to start with, this form has also been available from the start of part 62 and hasn’t changed.

There are no regulations about flight into controlled airspace; the regulations require dual and solo flights into a Controlled Airport for LSA's
This has been discussed with many LSA instructors and the regulation has been amended from 3 hours dual and 2 hours solo to two dual flights into and out of a controlled airfield, this can form part of the x country flights. This eliminates the need to spend hours in the circuit of a controlled airport, simply go in and get out and gain controlled airport procedural knowledge, This proposal has been welcomed by all of the A grade instructors consulted on the issue.
Finally a plane does not have to be fitted with a transponder to fly into and out of a controlled airport, you do need prior permission anyhow to fly there with a LSA and if they request a squawk code and you inform them that you are not equipped with a transponder they will simply request that you report at XYZ.


Pierre
011 827 9330

[wildthing]

From another post under general, I guess this guy would have benefitted from a Nav Test

Grade A instructor gets lost on short Nav
by Goffel » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:34 pm

A well known Grade A instructor from the Noth, was on a mission with a passanger, temporarily misplaced himself and landed at the wrong airfield, ONLY to find the supposed airfield was not in fact an airfield, but a school sports field...

Once landed, the said Grade A instructor leapt from his steed and announced that he was here........ .......only to have an irate groundsman threaten to shove his steed right up his if said steed was not evacuated off the nicely manicured grass....

Well known embarrassed Grade A instructor from the North and his passanger quickly departed from said manicured grass to his intended destination, which finally, he did actually find... .

Goffel
Heard about flying

Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:32 pm
E-mail Goffel

[lefssa]

There seems to be some irate people out there regarding what has always been in the legislation. When all our light aircraft (LSA, CCM and WCM) were called microlights we used to follow Part 61. Well we should have been following it to the letter. If we were the instructors would have noticed under the old Part 61 on the CAA "flight test form" as it was known then, had a section at the end for navigation as part of the flight test. If they read the CATS on how to complete the flight test form they will have known that there was always a navigation section of the flight test. How were instructors previously marking this section on the flight test form if this was never done. Keep in mind that the flight test cannot be done by the instructor giving the student his licence but by a second B grade testing instructor. How did the testing instructor then fill this out if he never did a navigation with the student.

Because everybody got away with it during the CAA control of microlighting doesn't mean that it was correct. Now that RAASA has been instructed on how to follow the legislation current instructors are getting upset because they are doing their job and picking things like this up.

What Pierre says in his comment earlier is exactly how it is. This legislation has not been changed and if you compare it to Part 61 you will see that it reads the same. It is totally incorrect to say that this legislation has "crept in".

It is important that instructors are up to speed on the legislation.

[KFA]

What I really have a problem with is the 3 hr's dual and 2 hr's solo in controlled airspace for the LSA. Firstly our closest controlled airspace is Kruger International (120km away). As it is they hardly gives us permission to enter their airspace let alone have us doing circuits at their field. I think some sort of controlled airspace exposure is nessesary but having your student fly 1 hr to the controlled field, 2 hr's of circuits and back 1hr is just plain stupid. Some guys making the regulations only have Gauteng in mind and they forget that we guys in the sticks are not close to all the facilities they take for granted.

[lefssa]

If you read Pierre's comment above it clearly states that you only need to do two dual and one solo approach and landing at a controlled airfield. Nothing is mentioned about controlled airspace. There is a difference. This regulation has been changed recently. You will get the update in due course. Pierre has previously mentioned that he is allowing the this due to problems in operating for hours at controlled airfields.

[C205]

What are the requirements regarding conventional microlights regarding the nav? We fly a Quicksilver MXII, with the endurance of 1h 15min (at a stretch), which at 40mhp takes us just around the airfield. From Witbank we basically make MIddelburg and back on one tank. We do not have a controlled airfield anywhere within (even double) this area.

[lefssa]

I don'i think anyone will expect you to fly more than a 45 min. nav in that case. It is difficalt to fly without fuel. Is it not possible to stop somewhere for fuel so you can do the required 90 minute nav? You don't have to land at a controlled airfield for a CCM license, only an LSA license. Small error in last posting, i said you need 2 dual and 1 solo nav to controlled airfield, it is only 2 dual.

[C205]

Cool, no prob. Thanks. Can always arrange fuel at a stop. Its the controlled airfield that had me worried.