The prop should play a role yes, DUC FC windspoon with titanium edge vs Arplast. "The DUC FC propeller with its revolutionary shape called WINDSPOON offers unrivalled performance.
The best up to date techniques were used for its design :
CAD studies, laser technology, etc.
The results of these developments are :
§ Better performance,
§ Lower fuel consumption,
§ Less noise.
But the doors most certainly. I am not going to check out the difference for you guys now ... too bloody cold ! When Summer returns I'll make the comparison. If Alan is following the thread he could enlighten us as he has flown quite a few hours without doors and I recall him mentioning that his Xenon is quite a bit thirstier without doors.
The aerofoil shape of the Xenon's nose ceratainly plays a big part here as well. It does not present much drag to the oncoming air. The "wing shape" of the nose is also the reason ( I mentioned this before) that the Xenon recovers so quickly and effortlessly from a hover. Just a slight dip of the nose and she is off again.
The engine , as far as I know, is built / converted by a French company , not specifically for Xenon.
France AviationRotax 503/582 UL, 65hp, Rotax 912 UL, 81hp, Rotax 912 ULS, 100hp, Rotax 914 UL, 115hp, Rotax 912 RST, 122hp, Jabiru 2200, 85hp, Jabiru 3300, 120hp ...
http://www.franceaviation.co.nz/ - Cached - Similar
Xenon Gyro
Moderators: Gyronaut, Condor, FO Gyro
Re: Xenon Gyro
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braam hechter
- Woohoo 100 posts - flying high
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Re: Xenon Gyro
Hi Low Level.
I will try to answer your questions
1. Is the RST a Xenon conversion, or done by someone else ? Do you know if there are any mods in the engine, low compression pistons etc ?
2. Thinking about the cost. Buying a second hand hand 912 and doing the conversion against the cost of a new 914, and obviously wondering what will be the cost of a new RST ?
RST = Rotax Super Turbo
There are approx 2000 Rotax 912 (80 hp) engines flying with an added turbo. Raphael made contact with quite a few operators of these engines before opting to go this route.
I have been fortunate in "living" close to Johan Von Ludwig. The current challenge is to have an engine delivering enough thrust at a low enough mass. You can use the rotary engine, gearboxes not proven enough in our opinion en fuel consumption fairly high, Wagtail has played with the Subaru series engines and had good results. More on that in the future.
Based on the lessons learned in the search for a balanced mix the desicion was made to use the RST engine. The RST uses the standard 80 hp engine configuration. The exhaust system is specially built with a collector etc. to the turbo. There is also a gyro specific airbox with an intercooler. The controls is mostly pneumatic for the wastegate etc. The jetting is also changed to suit the turbo. The factory uses new Rotax engines and they are being supported by the Polish Rotax engine agent for engineering information. Most of the assembly work specific for the Xenon is done at the CELIER Aviation factory. (Using longer outlet pipes, fittment of the airbox)
The intention is to make, complete bolt on kits available for other engines in service. These kits will be fitted by the designated maintenance centres. The assembly will then be tested and all parametres baselined for performance information.
The RST configuration was tested to 160 hp at approx 50 inches MAP. We have however opted to stay at approx 40 inches MAP giving 122 hp in order to increase engine life.
Our operations are slanted towards commercial usage of the Xenon. (Amongs others the military usage in Burkino Faso) The design parameters being 5 hours of flying per day. The pilot workload, comfort, ease of operation, supportability etc. plays a huge role. It is against this backdrop that we are assessing and improving the Xenon.
I think it will be possible to update a pre-owned 912 (80 hp) to the RST standard and fitting this to the Xenon. Just bare in mind that the factory will not will not carry any warranties on the engine. (They do not know the engine and have been through this before.) One must however weigh up the cost of shipping etc to see if this will result in a saving.
Xenon RST approx 8 000 Euro cheaper than 914
Trust this answers some of your questions.
Greetings and fly safely.
Braam
I will try to answer your questions
1. Is the RST a Xenon conversion, or done by someone else ? Do you know if there are any mods in the engine, low compression pistons etc ?
2. Thinking about the cost. Buying a second hand hand 912 and doing the conversion against the cost of a new 914, and obviously wondering what will be the cost of a new RST ?
RST = Rotax Super Turbo
There are approx 2000 Rotax 912 (80 hp) engines flying with an added turbo. Raphael made contact with quite a few operators of these engines before opting to go this route.
I have been fortunate in "living" close to Johan Von Ludwig. The current challenge is to have an engine delivering enough thrust at a low enough mass. You can use the rotary engine, gearboxes not proven enough in our opinion en fuel consumption fairly high, Wagtail has played with the Subaru series engines and had good results. More on that in the future.
Based on the lessons learned in the search for a balanced mix the desicion was made to use the RST engine. The RST uses the standard 80 hp engine configuration. The exhaust system is specially built with a collector etc. to the turbo. There is also a gyro specific airbox with an intercooler. The controls is mostly pneumatic for the wastegate etc. The jetting is also changed to suit the turbo. The factory uses new Rotax engines and they are being supported by the Polish Rotax engine agent for engineering information. Most of the assembly work specific for the Xenon is done at the CELIER Aviation factory. (Using longer outlet pipes, fittment of the airbox)
The intention is to make, complete bolt on kits available for other engines in service. These kits will be fitted by the designated maintenance centres. The assembly will then be tested and all parametres baselined for performance information.
The RST configuration was tested to 160 hp at approx 50 inches MAP. We have however opted to stay at approx 40 inches MAP giving 122 hp in order to increase engine life.
Our operations are slanted towards commercial usage of the Xenon. (Amongs others the military usage in Burkino Faso) The design parameters being 5 hours of flying per day. The pilot workload, comfort, ease of operation, supportability etc. plays a huge role. It is against this backdrop that we are assessing and improving the Xenon.
I think it will be possible to update a pre-owned 912 (80 hp) to the RST standard and fitting this to the Xenon. Just bare in mind that the factory will not will not carry any warranties on the engine. (They do not know the engine and have been through this before.) One must however weigh up the cost of shipping etc to see if this will result in a saving.
Xenon RST approx 8 000 Euro cheaper than 914
Trust this answers some of your questions.
Greetings and fly safely.
Braam
Re: Xenon Gyro
THI, you will have to wait .THI wrote:Hi ZS-NEL
Post a few here! We can't wait until August!
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THI
- Pilot in Command
- Posts: 884
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:12 am
- Location: Potchefstroom - Noordwes
Re: Xenon Gyro
ZS-NEL wrote: THI, you will have to wait .
Thinus Enslin
Potchefstroom (FAPS)
ZU-CML
Sycamore MK1 - Hilux of the gyros
Would love a RV10 though...
Potchefstroom (FAPS)
ZU-CML
Sycamore MK1 - Hilux of the gyros
Would love a RV10 though...
Re: Xenon Gyro
Looks awesome, if only I was not sukkelaar but richie rich
Regards
Sukkelaar
Regards
Sukkelaar
Kyk Noord
Re: Xenon Gyro
Did you know, (and I did not read this on a chappie rapper) this cockpit is 10 inches wider than a Cessna 172. Dis flippen wyd! 
Re: Xenon Gyro
Sorry I have been out of contact for a while.
Certainly without the doors, my Xenon RT uses over 20 l/hr and that is staying at 60kts, as above that spped the wind buffeting in the cockpit gives one a headache after an hours flight.
Alan
Certainly without the doors, my Xenon RT uses over 20 l/hr and that is staying at 60kts, as above that spped the wind buffeting in the cockpit gives one a headache after an hours flight.
Alan
Re: Xenon Gyro
Xenon Gyro
Preview: Re: Xenon Gyro
Hey Alan , nice to see you doing the rounds again !
I also found buffetting in the cockpit at high speeds without doors but it does'nt bother me if I wear my headset helmet . I always used to fly the Magnis with cap and headset until my Bushveld experience and then started wearing a David Clarke headset helmet...
Once you fly open gyros with a helmet you will not want to go back to cap , sunglasses and headset !
Without doors on the Xenon I feel more comfortable wearing a helmet . I don't really notice the buffeting then and slowing down to 60mph takes care of the buffetting.
This is also a comfortable speed for your pax in a tandem . Above this they really get hammered at the back !
But with the doors on you get the best out of this craft. Speedwise , comfort and obviously fuelburn 9 from 16/17/18 lph to 22? . I don't notice much difference in the handling with or without doors but will try it out again once it warms up a bit !
I am now on 70 hrs and still loving it ! Tried her out in Yesterday's wind and was it pumping ! Wanted to compare groundspeeds at different power settings with and against the wind. Landing against the wind ...0 meters ! Malcolm Taylor came over to check the machine out because he saw the landing and firmly believed that there was a cyclic and collective involved !
You must pop over to Tedderfield on Saturday. We are having a flyinn. Will be nice to see you and your xenon !
Preview: Re: Xenon Gyro
Hey Alan , nice to see you doing the rounds again !
I also found buffetting in the cockpit at high speeds without doors but it does'nt bother me if I wear my headset helmet . I always used to fly the Magnis with cap and headset until my Bushveld experience and then started wearing a David Clarke headset helmet...
Once you fly open gyros with a helmet you will not want to go back to cap , sunglasses and headset !
Without doors on the Xenon I feel more comfortable wearing a helmet . I don't really notice the buffeting then and slowing down to 60mph takes care of the buffetting.
This is also a comfortable speed for your pax in a tandem . Above this they really get hammered at the back !
But with the doors on you get the best out of this craft. Speedwise , comfort and obviously fuelburn 9 from 16/17/18 lph to 22? . I don't notice much difference in the handling with or without doors but will try it out again once it warms up a bit !
I am now on 70 hrs and still loving it ! Tried her out in Yesterday's wind and was it pumping ! Wanted to compare groundspeeds at different power settings with and against the wind. Landing against the wind ...0 meters ! Malcolm Taylor came over to check the machine out because he saw the landing and firmly believed that there was a cyclic and collective involved !
You must pop over to Tedderfield on Saturday. We are having a flyinn. Will be nice to see you and your xenon !
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Re: Xenon Gyro
Flynote,
Hopefully my doors will be fitted this week.
What a dissappointment last Monday on my return from the Coast. After three weeks the AMO hadn't looked at my doors, not even sprayed them. I was even more dissapointed ,as I then asked if it could be done by Thursday as I had a friend out on business from Vancouver who really enjoys flying. Thursday comes .. nothing.
But certainly, I will be there. I am going to bug the hell out of him this week... like "in your face".....
Alan
Hopefully my doors will be fitted this week.
What a dissappointment last Monday on my return from the Coast. After three weeks the AMO hadn't looked at my doors, not even sprayed them. I was even more dissapointed ,as I then asked if it could be done by Thursday as I had a friend out on business from Vancouver who really enjoys flying. Thursday comes .. nothing.
But certainly, I will be there. I am going to bug the hell out of him this week... like "in your face".....
Alan
Re: Xenon Gyro
Mmmm two silver Xenon's in formation, what a photo oppertunity !!FLYNOTE wrote: You must pop over to Tedderfield on Saturday. We are having a flyinn. Will be nice to see you and your xenon !
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Low Level
- Frequent Flyer
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Re: Xenon Gyro
Nou word ons plebs dan nou nie genooi nie.FLYNOTE wrote:You must pop over to Tedderfield on Saturday. We are having a flyinn. Will be nice to see you and your xenon !
Happiness is: Wanting what you have.
ZU-CFW
My soul called, and it wants it's life back. Only one thing to do. Let's fly.
ZU-CFW
My soul called, and it wants it's life back. Only one thing to do. Let's fly.
Re: Xenon Gyro
my hangar deure staan altyd wawyd oop. Val in. Altyd plek vir nog n siel met n hart vir n gyro !
Re: Xenon Gyro
What a great flying weekend this was !
Our flyinn at Tedderfield went well and was very well supported through out the day.
The guys started arriving for breakfast from 7h15 onwards ... the trikes were first to land with blue faced pilots, in very thick flightsuits from Springs , followed by a couple of fixed wings and gyros from Fly inn , Rino Park , Kitty Hawk etc. etc.
Then all the Xenons came ... both of them ! and there they were all together for the first time . The Yellow one couldn't make it or it could have turned into quite a historic event ; the biggest gathering of Xenons in Africa ! Mind you the airforce of Burkino Faso has a fleet of , I think 6, at this stage parolling their borders.
In any case , Johan von Ludwig was there with his incredible Kriek , Anthony came with the Elas, Roelf with the Mt03s ; there were fast planes , slow planes , beautiful planes , new planes, old planes, aerobatic planes , helicopters and a hell of a lot of nice guys ( which pilot is not ) popping in and talking flying !
On Sunday I took a leisurely flight to the Vaaldam and just loved cruising around for about two hours.
What is really special about this craft is the incredible visibility from the cabin. I am used to the closed cabins of fixed wings where one peers over the dashboard at the horizon ahead. With Xenon you have the visibility of a helicopter and man oh man ... the sensation of "flying in a bubble" as mentioned before, is fantastic !
Your instrument panel is placed in the centre of the cabin allowing unobstructed visibility in front of you through the large bubble windscreen and below you through the large floor windows and obviously to the sides and above you. This is why you want a gyros. It's for the fun and joy of flying . You want unobstructed visibility and supreme comfort!
Baie lekkkeeerrrrrr hierie deng
In August I'm taking the Xenon to Namaqualand to see the Spring flowers. Imagine the vista from this cockpit ! Can't wait... counting the sleeps !
Our flyinn at Tedderfield went well and was very well supported through out the day.
The guys started arriving for breakfast from 7h15 onwards ... the trikes were first to land with blue faced pilots, in very thick flightsuits from Springs , followed by a couple of fixed wings and gyros from Fly inn , Rino Park , Kitty Hawk etc. etc.
Then all the Xenons came ... both of them ! and there they were all together for the first time . The Yellow one couldn't make it or it could have turned into quite a historic event ; the biggest gathering of Xenons in Africa ! Mind you the airforce of Burkino Faso has a fleet of , I think 6, at this stage parolling their borders.
In any case , Johan von Ludwig was there with his incredible Kriek , Anthony came with the Elas, Roelf with the Mt03s ; there were fast planes , slow planes , beautiful planes , new planes, old planes, aerobatic planes , helicopters and a hell of a lot of nice guys ( which pilot is not ) popping in and talking flying !
On Sunday I took a leisurely flight to the Vaaldam and just loved cruising around for about two hours.
What is really special about this craft is the incredible visibility from the cabin. I am used to the closed cabins of fixed wings where one peers over the dashboard at the horizon ahead. With Xenon you have the visibility of a helicopter and man oh man ... the sensation of "flying in a bubble" as mentioned before, is fantastic !
Your instrument panel is placed in the centre of the cabin allowing unobstructed visibility in front of you through the large bubble windscreen and below you through the large floor windows and obviously to the sides and above you. This is why you want a gyros. It's for the fun and joy of flying . You want unobstructed visibility and supreme comfort!
Baie lekkkeeerrrrrr hierie deng
In August I'm taking the Xenon to Namaqualand to see the Spring flowers. Imagine the vista from this cockpit ! Can't wait... counting the sleeps !
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braam hechter
- Woohoo 100 posts - flying high
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 8:14 am
Re: Xenon Gyro
Hi All.
As you may have noticed the last two weeks has been fairly busy from the Xenon/Wagtail perspective. Firstly, Johan Stemmet, thanks for the invite to any gyro to visit your hangar during the Tedderfield Fly Inn. Anthony Cohen visited with his Ela and then the Wagtail team with the Kriek, 2 x Ela's and the Xenon flew in. Johan treated us well and a good time was had by all. Louis van Wyk visited us from the mother city and completed his conversion on the Xenon. The intention being, to have somebody in the Cape to support future customers. Alan Guest flew in with his Xenon and Jean-Pierre Duponsel came to visit and exchange ideas. Jean-Pierre has also completed his conversion and his kit build Xenon is nearing completion. The aircraft will be moved to Krugersdorp shortly where the final inspections will be carried out for the application for proving flights. Kevin Hopper also popped in to meet up with the crowd. Kevin is in the process of establishing an AMO at Krugersdorp and has been supporting the Xenons in his area.
As you may well have read, the Kriek visited the Fly Inn. This is the culmination of many long hours spent and encompasses the work that was carried out over time. Seeing that Johan von Ludwig does not do to much talking i will be forward. Johan and his team has developed the 33 composite ft rotor. This was fitted and tested on the Sprinkaan. This was a 300 hp powered beast. Much testing was done with this machine and a few patents was lodged. Thereafter the requirement to have a cheaper working machine available, become the priority. Johan had discussions with Monty Jeffries and a Bush Baby fuselage was enlarged to become the Kriek. Some of the interesting equipment on the aircraft is the hydraulic spin up as well as the avionics. This aircraft has now flown approx 60 hrs. All the knowledge gained during this can now be used for the next phase...
The Wagtail team has also achieved AMO status. They are now CAA Approved AMO 1125, and one of a few AMO's rated to carry out basically any work on gyros. They are rated for maintenance, repair and overhaul of airframes and engines. This includes overhauling of the Rotax series as well as automotive engines used in gyros. They can also certify avionic installations and carry out welding repairs. This is a well deserved achievement. Congrats.
The next step could be the establishment of a Design and Manufacturing Buro.
Johan von Ludwig and myself will be visiting the Xenon factory in Poland shortly to discuss various other possibilities that became apparent after the Kriek, testing with Raphael, and also to test fly and take delivery of the next Xenon.
Enjoy life to the fullest and have a MAGIC time.
Greetings, Braam
As you may have noticed the last two weeks has been fairly busy from the Xenon/Wagtail perspective. Firstly, Johan Stemmet, thanks for the invite to any gyro to visit your hangar during the Tedderfield Fly Inn. Anthony Cohen visited with his Ela and then the Wagtail team with the Kriek, 2 x Ela's and the Xenon flew in. Johan treated us well and a good time was had by all. Louis van Wyk visited us from the mother city and completed his conversion on the Xenon. The intention being, to have somebody in the Cape to support future customers. Alan Guest flew in with his Xenon and Jean-Pierre Duponsel came to visit and exchange ideas. Jean-Pierre has also completed his conversion and his kit build Xenon is nearing completion. The aircraft will be moved to Krugersdorp shortly where the final inspections will be carried out for the application for proving flights. Kevin Hopper also popped in to meet up with the crowd. Kevin is in the process of establishing an AMO at Krugersdorp and has been supporting the Xenons in his area.
As you may well have read, the Kriek visited the Fly Inn. This is the culmination of many long hours spent and encompasses the work that was carried out over time. Seeing that Johan von Ludwig does not do to much talking i will be forward. Johan and his team has developed the 33 composite ft rotor. This was fitted and tested on the Sprinkaan. This was a 300 hp powered beast. Much testing was done with this machine and a few patents was lodged. Thereafter the requirement to have a cheaper working machine available, become the priority. Johan had discussions with Monty Jeffries and a Bush Baby fuselage was enlarged to become the Kriek. Some of the interesting equipment on the aircraft is the hydraulic spin up as well as the avionics. This aircraft has now flown approx 60 hrs. All the knowledge gained during this can now be used for the next phase...
The Wagtail team has also achieved AMO status. They are now CAA Approved AMO 1125, and one of a few AMO's rated to carry out basically any work on gyros. They are rated for maintenance, repair and overhaul of airframes and engines. This includes overhauling of the Rotax series as well as automotive engines used in gyros. They can also certify avionic installations and carry out welding repairs. This is a well deserved achievement. Congrats.
The next step could be the establishment of a Design and Manufacturing Buro.
Johan von Ludwig and myself will be visiting the Xenon factory in Poland shortly to discuss various other possibilities that became apparent after the Kriek, testing with Raphael, and also to test fly and take delivery of the next Xenon.
Enjoy life to the fullest and have a MAGIC time.
Greetings, Braam
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