Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby t-bird » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:49 pm

Hi Eric
Per your post about 80 % of the accidents attributable to one instructor.
This means nothing and here is an example.
I am a better pilot than you – I have zero accidents you have a few
You would say that you have more hours than me.
The instructor that you referring to trained more people than anyone else have in the country.
You would say that you have more accidents because you have flow more unstable gyro’s like the Leopard.
This means that the Mocke’s with their RAF’s are the best pilots.
The instructor that you referring to trained students on ELA’s without castering front wheels and MTO 3.
These problems have been fixed by ELA and MTO 3 but the accident records remained.
This instructor have a passion for Gyro’s , explained the workings to me and showed me video’s of the early gyro’s for two hours at Rhino park. I was flying a Thunderbird and would have never imagined flying a gyro.
I have flown with this guy and his airmanship is excellent.
I have also flown with an ATPL from Brakpan in a Gyro with the worse airmanship I have ever experience, but he was one hell of a pilot.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby gyrosa » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:28 pm

Hi Callie
I agree that I have had my share of accidents. One in a Leopard, a Sycamore and two students with Ella's.
The issue is not who has flown the most hours or trained the most. The issue is the quality of the training. The issue is that the training provided by this instructor is at present not part and parcel with the requirements as set out by the SACAA. Some of the causes investigated so far have a direct relation to the instruction methods applied AND when approached by a senior instructor, this guy starts giving excuses, gets aggro and walks off. There is one particular manauover where a reverse bunt is a very real possibility and this can and will eventually kill. Remember we all have our faults, but if we are not prepared to learn from them as instructors, and pass them on, it is time to stop!!
Regarding your comments on various types and their so called instability, I am afraid you are out of line. An aircraft, when flown by a pilot trained to fly that type correctly, the plane will not be considered to be unstable by that pilot. I have not flown a RAF, but until such time that I can be converted to one correctly, I will stay clear of it. This does not mean that I consider it unstable. A further example, I was flying a R22 with a friend the other day. I tried to hover in the Cape South Easter and kept losing it. That does not make the aircraft unstable as the pilot could handle it - I could not.
Landing back on the runway after a simulated engine failure where you are forced to do a 180 degree turn is OUT of the question. The fact that certain types have castoring wheels and others not has nothing to do with the accidents that I have investigated.
I have worked on a hellava lot of gyro's and I can see in a lot of cases from the wreck and speaking to the pilot concerned what has taken place and what lead up to the accident. In most cases the accidents were due to downright lack of proper training procedure and nothing else. Certain procedures are introduced in direct contraction with the pilot and owners manual with disastrous results.
Every accident that takes place is due to a number of issues that eventually lead up to the final crack up. Why is it that when discipline is applied, they do not take place?
People cause accidents, not aircraft, or cars etc. If people are trained correctly, they will reduce accidents.
To the best of my knowledge, your ab initio training was at Brackpan. You only converted at Rhino. You had already received a good basic training at Brakpan. I bet they never taught you to do a 180 degree turn and return to the runway for a simulated engine failure. I know this because I spoke to a person that was training with you at Brakpan this morning.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby t-bird » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:04 am

Hi Removed
Last edited by t-bird on Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby Vertical Tango » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:10 am

FO Gyro wrote:Thanks Eric. Not too sure how VT "converted" in only 3.5 hrs :?: ...Glenn
Glen , may be I should explain: I went solo in 3.5 Hrs. Then I did a complement of 15 Hrs total without a pax, practicing on my own obviously under the guidance of the instructor. Then another instructor did a final test with me at Rand airport to check my efficiency in all exercises. Nothing dangerous, just straight forward stuff. That was about 8-9 years ago.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby Low Level » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:19 am

As a relative newbie - just passed the 100 hrs - and on a serious learning curve, this thread is very valuable. I would really appreciate it if you guys can stop beating around the bush about the dangerous maneuvers. One is obviously exploring your gyro, and can unintentionally do some of these maneuvers. We might somewhere see someone doing something in his gyro, and the obvious thing - if it is not a totally stupid maneuver - would be to try it yourself. I mean this is the only way to learn. Teach yourself in baby steps - SAFELY.

I have also trained at Brakpan, and there is not much area to land after a EFATO, but never it was even mentioned that you must even THINK about doing a 180, but in all honesty, it is definately something that crossed my mind many times over.
Last edited by Low Level on Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby FO Gyro » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:24 am

VT, that now makes sense.

To jump into the boiling water with this whole 180 degree turnback discussion, I can tell you that if I am unlucky enough to experience a power loss after take off, and if I am at 300 ft or higher, and if the headwind on take off was below 10 kts, I will turn back 180, and I will make it to the ground in complete safety, rather than land in field somewhere, where the chance of overturning, or landing badly is that much higher.

After practising the manoeuve many times, I don't see is as dangerous at all. Why don't we learn it as PPL's or COM's: Because fixed wings can't do it, and haven't a hope in hell of getting back to the field without increasing the chances of stalling or flicking in. Whilst on checklists, some instructors still teach the old pnuemonics as part of the pre-take off checklist. Why would we run through things like Gills and Flaps on a gyro? Don't know what the syllabus calls for, but that's cluttering up the student's brain with fixed wing stuff. If I move from a Boeing 737 to an Airbus A340, the checklists are totally different. The MT-03 has a checklist that is specific for gyro's only.

Having said all that about the 180 degree turnback, I possibly agree that it's best left for the guy who already has his GPL, and would like to learn some other advanced manouevres. It is a bit too dramatic a manouevre for a new pilot maybe. All I can say is that I am glad I was shown it, because it is an escape manouevre I can have in my back pocket, that might just save a life oneday.

Low level, it is also best for someone who has done these manoeuvres to show you first.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby Vertical Tango » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:07 am

This is exactly what Eric says. Should not be done as part of early training. You run the risk of turning a pratice run to a fatality. Much later, anything can be experimented, but PROGRESSIVELY.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby t-bird » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:31 am

So why spin and stall as part of PPL training ?
100 % more dangerous than a 180 a gyro.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby FO Gyro » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:33 am

t-bird, I agree.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby Vertical Tango » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:49 am

Yes it is very dangerous ! In fact in UK, I believe (under correction) that it is forbidden in their PPL syllabus to do an incipient spin. In SA it might be looked at again seeing the Samba recent incidents.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby Learjet » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:27 pm

This isn't about whether or not a 180' should be conducted iro EFATO, or the relative pros & cons of this or other emergency procedures. ($$)

The issue Eric raised is a training protocol matter. The 180' procedure is apparently not within the scope of the gyro training syllabus for a student pilot. And it thus begs the question as to whether an instructor expecting an inexperienced student pilot to execute such a manoeuvre potentially compromises safety and training standards?

If it does, then I believe the matter should be raised and dealt directly with the instructor concerned, failing which, via SAGPA and or the SACAA. If the current gyro training syllabus and EFATO protocols need to be reviewed, then the instructor is surely free to motivate SAGPA / CAA to do so? Until such time as that happens, one would assume that the training syllabus and standards are there to be adhered to for good reason - not at the discretion and whim of instructors.

The frequency of accidents being attributed to "pilot lost directional control" or "pilot made an input control error" etc is worrying and may well stem from poor decision-making, insufficient or innapropriate training, or the result of "bad habits" adopted post-training. Hopefully the newly implemented license-renewal 'check-flight" requirement will help identify and address some of these.

Eric, I appreciate your frustration - you are a well-respected and experienced instructor voicing your concerns in the hope of averting future needless accidents. Whilst lives are indeed more valuable than reputations, at the risk of my being mistaken for a protagonist of "quiet diplomacy," I think there is little resolution to be found on this forum. The personal dynamics of instructor & school loyalties, taking-sides and the subjective defending and rebuking are not going to provide a solution. If anything it risks creating additional "politics" and loyalty spilts within the gyro community. We don't need this.
I gather from your original post that SAGPA is aware of the situation and trust that SAGPA (or if necessary, the CAA) will take the necessary action to ensure that gyro training standards are not being compromised.

Regards, Dave
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby t-bird » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:15 pm

Hi Learjet

Can we get a copy of the CAA approved training manual on the web as a sticky ?

And does this manual prohibit 180 degree turns ??

Does this manual also provided the opportunity for advance training ?
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby Learjet » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:11 pm

Hi T-Bird - I'm not an instructor so I don't know offhand what is or what isn't allowed training-wise as per the syllabus. I presume the answer lies somewhere in in the depths and appendices to CATS Part 62 etc. :?

ok... update: Found this as per Part 62:
Skill test TS62.06.5 Practical test of Knowledge of Procedures and Flying Skills... (a) blah blah blah "demonstrate his skill in the following procedures..." blah blah (but doesn't list them) and... (b) Procedures and actions to be tested according to APPENDIX R62.09"


But I can't find the relevant appendix! (**) Maybe one of the instructors here can help?
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby gyrosa » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:05 am

hi dave,
you hit the nail on the head as far as training protocols go.
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Re: Gyro Accidents: Summary 2008

Postby t-bird » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:22 am

Does these protocols exits ??

My training was based on the PPL syllabus
Stalls and spins were replaced with fly behind the curve and low rotor rpm take off.

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