Gyro training in SA..........

[Gyronaut]

Mirek Zwalenski ...

Daar was nie 'n 15 uur reel toe ek begin vlieg het nie.

Hmm... dis Mirek Zalewski, nie Zwalenski nie. Ek onthou na 21 jaar presies wie my solo gestuur het, elke keer.

Daar was nog nooit en daar is nog steeds GEEN 15 uur reel voor solo nie. Waar kom jy daaraan?

Die vraag is of enige student, ek gee nie om hoeveel ander vliegure hy het nie, bevoeg sal wees om 'n gyro veilig te land in die geval van 'n noodgeval tydens sy solo, na slegs 4 ure. ?? Ek twyfel, tensy die volle 4 ure toegespits was op noodgevalle tydens vlug.

Ek het nog nooit werklik bevoegde loodse hoor "bragging-rites" eis oor hoe gou hulle solo gegaan het nie. Dit beteken niks. Ek meet liewer 'n loods se bevoegdheid aan sy algehele vliegvaardigheid EN aan sy bedagsaamheid, sy gesindheid teenoor ander vlieniers en die sport.

[saraf]

Ek het nie die post begin vir n argument nie asb mense............

T-Bird , ek haal my hoed af vir jou wat in so n kort training tyd jou gyro lisense asook jou PPL gekry het. Min mense bemeester gyro en PPL vlieg in so n kort tydtjie soos jy.

Ek het die post begin om die gevoel van mense te toets oor ons training in SA op gyro's want ek voel die training wat die wet voorskryf (veral die hoeveelheid ure) is te min en maak voorsiening vir wat op die oomblik gebeur. Soos byvoorbeeld om mense solo te stuur in 10 , 15 , 8, 6 ure, wat vir my onaanvaarbaar is...... (onthou net die is my opinie)

In Amerika het presies die selfde gebeur en dit het n gevolg gehad dat gyros n slegte naam gekry het en baie mense dood of seer gekry het. En dit wil ek in SA probleer vermy. Die PRA is van 5000 lede na minder as n 1000 as gevolg van dit.

Ek verstaan mense verskil en mense se vaardighede verskil ook so een ou gaan vinniger leer as ander, maar wat vat dit van jou as instrukteer om n paar uur meer saam met die student in die gyro te spandeer? Ja die student betaal daarvoor , maar op die ou end van die dag maak dit van hom n beter Pilot en gee jou meer gemoedsrus. Hy sal jou bedank vir dit. Dit help nie om die man n paar rand te spaar op training en dan in die long run kos jy hom eintlik geld nie.

Met wie gaan jy eerder vlieg? n man wat solo was op 10h of n man wat solo was op 35h?????????????? Wie gaan jy die meeste vertrou?

In my opinie kan jy NIE n persoon als van gyros leer in eers 15h se vlieg nie, volgens my is dit onmoontlik, en hier praat ek nie uit my duim nie, ek het darm al n paar mense leer gyros vlieg , insluitende Internationale kliente.
Ons sport in SA lei skade , nie as gevolg van swak gyros nie , maar as gevolg van swak training , en hier gee ek nie die instrukteers die skuld nie maar die wet , want die wet laat n instukteer toe om iemand solo te stuur in so n kort tydtjie.

Ek vat n voorbeeld, Die RAF het n slegte naam gehad en was as n "death TRAP" beskou regoor die wereld en veral in SA......hoekom??? almal het gese ons moet n HS opsit...........dit is net waar mense die vout gemaak het.
Die probleem was by training , en vandat ek en my pa die training verander het na 35 tot 45h dual het ek en hy die Gyro Wereld verkeerd bewys. Nou vlieg mense oud en jonk die RAF vir Honderde ure veilig sonder enige probleem en minimale insidente. Nog nooit PIO en PPO wat almal so van praat het gebeur nie.

So die vout le nie by die gyros nie , dit is in die training en ons moet dit aanpreek anders gaan ons dieselfde pad stap as Amerika stap...................

Groete
Eben Mocke Jnr

[MAGNIficent]

Eben,
Please endeavour to do the post in English, I think that will open your post up to more people.

[Jean Crous]

Eben,
Please endeavour to do the post in English, I think that will open your post up to more people.

Did you not know......... Afrikaans is the new international aviation language

[Vertical Tango]

Thanks Magnificent. It will last 2 posts and return the way it was and has always been.
I wonder anyway if "foreigners" need "Gyro training..." That must be for the "others", not for us

[Thebushpilot]

Gents

I believe someone already mentioned that, if the instructor is happy AND the student is confident, then release him to fly solo. If the student is brand new to flying then he'll probably not know what his boundaries are so the onus is on the instructor to make the correct call. The trainee, due to hanger talk, will want to be sent solo as soon as possible as he'll think he's really good if he does so. This thus leads to my question;

Can someone please tell me why there seems to be some "Macho" image attached to going solo early? The negative component attached to this pilots culture is the sense of invulnerability - this can seriously hurt you. This Macho attitude leads to risk taking, failure to take advice and procedural "drift" and errors, it thus allows them to push themselves far beyond their abilities.

Most pilots are dangerous after they've finished their licenses, there's no one around to monitor them and they're pushing boundaries. The macho attitude is a first class killer, he is always the one who will show you how to do something, do a beat up, wing overs, fly extra low and he'll always be one of the show-offs - I bet each of you reading this can think of someone who fits into the above category!

Regarding hours for a gyro license, once again it is up to the instructor to first send the trainee solo and then once the exercises are completed, determines if a the trainee is acceptable to do the skills test. What the SA gyro license does not take into account is previous flying experience, why not? Once one has mastered the pre-rotation process and has learnt what to do with the disc after a landing has taken place, it's no different to flying a fixed wing aircraft - flying wise just a whole lot more manoeuvreable!! There are exceptions, as some aircraft are actually harder to fly than others.

I believe instead of the possibility of increasing the hours for a license, you can actually reduce the hours if, there is a process whereby instructors are standardised at least twice a year (attend a conference/meeting), instructors must undergo an instructor check (once a year), in order to do skills tests they must hold a PPL (or higher), information amongst the instructors groups is shared etc. By effect of raising the level of instruction provided enhances the safety and professionalism of the sport, it allows the correct information will filter down to the students. I have witnessed some pretty shaky individuals who shouldn't even be flying never mind giving instruction. Please, these are my ideas for your gyro world.

Your thoughts?

[FO Gyro]

The minimum 30 hr requirement does seem a bit extreme for someone like myself, with a ATP, who flies professionally, since a lot of the exercises like cross countries would be waived. The requirement if you have a PPL and above should be slightly less. The dual hours are important, but the balance of the solo hours should be reduced to maybe 5 hours I think.

For someone maybe coming from a trike background where things are 180 degrees different, or no flying background at all, yes, 30 hrs maybe is the minimum. Maybe more dual time and less solo time would be better.

[Vertical Tango]

I agree and disagree with some of the points raised by TheBushPilot.
I say that the longer the training goes, the more sloppy the student tends to be and rely on the instructor to correct AGAIN the same mistakes.
I feel that the instructor should make the student understand from the first minute that he is helping very temporarily and very soon the student will be on his own. He must teach him that going around is not a sin, even 10 times in a row. He also must teach him how to explore SAFELY beyond his known limits, in such a way that this new exploration becomes the new limit. The licence is not to fly gyros but to learn how to fly and explore SAFELY. I have 1,300 hrs and still learn everyday.
I do not agree with the fact that going solo early makes the pilot a MACHO pilot. A pilot is MACHO or not long before learning to fly. An instructor can try to teach him all the cons of MACHO flying. The student will say Yes to all the arguments, and will do the opposite when he is on his own.
I also do not agree in making the instructors sillabus more and more complicated. Then the instructors will feel obliged to teach the whole lot to the student who will not be able to assimilate. Then it will take 100 hrs to have a licence.
My own experience has been different as I came from the PPL scene, with already conventional and tail draggers, fixed-wing microlights and trike experience. Obviously radio was not a problem when converting to gyros. However, the instructor slammed in my head that he won't be with me when I will crash, so I better play cool and be very careful. It was my decision. I was solo in 3.5 hours and today still do 'go arounds' when uncomfortable with the approach. After all we are talking about my life here. Lets stop with always trying to CONTROL students for them. They must take their own responsabilities or not fly at all.

[weedy]

I came into gyros from a PPL and feel that the solo hours hours required was largely a waste of time and money. I feel that even an newby pilot does not need all those solo hours, rather the initial licence should only allow solo flying up to say 100 hrs tt and then they go and get a dual endorsement.
Most of us know that all gyro's are not equal when it comes to ease of flying therefor will require varying degrees of dual time to master. To be honest I have found the gyro I had to be the simplest airy to date.
There is absolutely no value to the student to spend an hour even 30min on the majority of the exercises, only the schools gains.

Claude

[Thebushpilot]

Vertical Tango

I think you've misunderstood me. The Macho image is one of the effects of invulnerability which is a negative aspect of the pilot culture, the positive one, is a strong motivation to do well. I'm not saying that this happens to all pilots who solo early but there is a stigma attached to some of those who do.

There's someone on this forum firing off about how soon he went solo. You add this to the pilot culture and the "klap it" attitude or "boer maak a plan" attitude, which comes from our national culture, we end up with a higher risk individual - and he hasn't yet touched the flight controls on his next sortie.

Instructor standardisation is never a bad thing, one gets many positives from it. As an aside, I do believe that advanced training should be given to students, such as some formation flying, operating off dirt/away strips, low level etc. one needs to look at where the accidents occur and use that evidence to structure your training around.

[Vertical Tango]

TBP, I apologize for misreading.
Advanced training is absolutely in order for a second phase, say after 2 or 300 hours. But I do not agree with complicated training before going solo. Only the basics such being able to maintain altitude in turns, do relatively "acceptable" circuits, and if not OK, go around. A touch of forced landings, not necessarily mastering it, and finally how to learn more by himself SAFELY. Then the student must go and practice by himself, make his own mistakes and learn from it.
I'll give you an example. I did my first hover after 300 hours. I have never been required to learn the exercise. I never had to use it in any cross country nor any circuit. So why bother ? May be showing off to a friend ? I'll leave that to others. I know it might help in a forced landing to not pass the potential landing place underneath. But some instructors bash this exercise to students before they go solo ! Is that necessary ?

[Thebushpilot]

FO Gyro

I fully agree with you, take a look at what the Australian requirements are:

• Total flight time, which includes: ° 35 hours general flight time (20 dual, 10 PIC) ° 12 hours cross country (8 Dual, 4 PIC)

Or If holds an aeroplane or helicopter licence: • 15 hours general flight time (8 dual, 5 PIC)

Or If holds an aeroplane and a helicopter licence: • 8 hours general flight time (4 dual, 3 PIC)

Note: The 20 hours dual general flying may include time on registered aeroplane, a recognised aeroplane or a helicopter.

Now how practical is that, you can learn the basics on an aircraft!

So in summary, I feel the current requirements are quite excessive, maybe RAASA needs to consider those who have already flown other types and give credit where it's due

[FO Gyro]

For once the Aussies make sense!

[Gyronaut]

Thebushpilot, FO Gyro, Vertical Tango and Weedy, I agree with everything you have said.

The only thing I dissagree with the Aussies on is the 8 hours dual cross country for ab-initio. No man, 8 hours?? Sheez, thats a bit much.

On the topic of whether the instructor really has the say or not, I have the following to repeat (forgive me if I have done it before elsewhere). If the instructor feels that the student has control of the machine and will survive an emergency while alone, and subject to a dual check by an independent instructor, then why not. The real test of a confident instructor is one who is happy to send a student solo in his own machines. I have a problem with the logic that "you can go solo on your own machine - but not mine because the risk to my machine is too great"... What about HIS LIFE!? IF you wont send him solo on your own machine he shouldn't be going solo. Klaar. Quite simple really.

As for the discussion about the hours. An outstanding example of how I feel is reflected below verbatim except that I have changed the names of people and places and numbers.

Letter to RAASA from myself,

To whom it may concern:

APPLICATION FOR REDUCTION IN MINIMUM HOURS
NRPL (GYRO)

Mr James Wood, ID: 630123 456 78 approached Morningstar Flight Academy on 24 April 2011 to commence his Gyrocopter training.

He holds an ATP licence and is a Training Captain for XYZ-AIR on Boeing 123’s. He held a CPL(H) and has an LSA/WCM National Pilots Licence # 12345678. He owns a XYZ Compsite Light Sport Aircraft and his experience on this machine is evident in his handling of a Gyroplane.

It soon became evident that Mr Wood understood the airodynamics and controls of a Gyro very well and after a dual check with an independent instructor (Instructor XYZ) he went solo on XYZ ZU-XYZ on 30 April 2011 at FAXX. After a total of 8.0 hours dual and 4.5 hours solo he underwent his final flight test, again with XYZ and passed. He has also written the Principles of Flight and Engines and Airframe exams and passed both, which you will have on record.

It is our considered opinion that Mr Wood, who owns his own XYZ Gyroplane is competent and fully able to safely fly the machine although he has not completed the required 26 hours of dual and solo training.

Considering his vast prior flying experience and his natural ability, we respectfully request that an exception be made in his case and that his Gyroplane licence is issued to him in spite of the fact that he has not completed the minimum hours required.

I trust this request will be favourably considered.


Sincerely


L P KLOPPER
Gyroplane Instructor
123456789


So far so good... then a few days later I get this back from RAASA

Sent: 22 June 2011 10:09 AM
To: 'Cape Recreational Flight Training'
Subject: J WOOD Gyro Application

Hi XYZ.



Re your letter requesting the reduction in hours for J Wood to obtain his Gyroplane license the following:

See:

Experience

62.06.2 (1) An applicant for the issuing of a first type rating in the category gyroplane shall have completed not less than 30 hours flight time as a pilot of a gyroplane, of which at least 15 hours shall be solo flight time, and which flight time shall include –

(a) one cross-country flight, whether dual or under supervision, and one solo cross-country flight, each of a duration of not less than 90 minutes, flown at normal cruising speed; and

(b) one cross-country flight, whether duel or under supervision, of a duration of not lees than 90 minutes, flown at normal cruising speed, and which includes a full-stop landing at a point other than the point of departure:

Provided that the cross-country requirement shall not apply in the case of a type rating to be endorsed ‘tethered flight only’.

(2) The cross-country flights, referred to in sub-regulation (1), shall consist of at least three legs.

(3) Notwithstanding the provisions of sub-regulation (1), in the case of an applicant with extensive cross-country experience as the holder of a pilot licence, issued in terms of this Part or of Part 61, or as a pilot in the South African Air Force, the cross-country requirements may be relaxed at the discretion of the flight instructor who conducts the skill test, referred to in regulation 62.06.5.


Therefore the only credit the applicant may receive is a relaxation on his cross countries, at the discretion of the testing instructor. He would therefore have to complete the balance of the flying hours as required above.

Kind Regards

XYZ
Assistant Flight Operations Manager
RAASA



So, In this gentlemans case, he simply flew the solo hours required with the added hassle of being signed out and back in and we did the dual by doing a lot of the Advanced stuff like Flying behind the power curve, Mountain Flying, Formation Flying, Display Flying and all the lekka stuff. Of course I learned a lot from him too!

Personally I dont think its a big deal, I would propose we keep it as it is for Ab-intio and adopt the Australian method ASAP for holders of Aeroplane and/or Helicopter licences - within 5 years of lapse.

That would get my vote. Perhaps something to be raised at the SAGPA AGM. I will place it on the Agenda.

Len

[Thebushpilot]

Len

You certainly get my vote on that!!

How do you feel about instructor standardisation meetings. As you mentioned, you learnt something from your student, I feel that as an instructor, one should always be learning or widening your scope on how things can be done.

I come from a fixed wing background, don't you not feel that you should incorporate different grades of instructors, having the "heavies" do the skill tests and instructor tests - this could raise the standard all round. What I mean here is have it the same as other license types, Grade 3 to Grade 1 (that's a heavy!). It prevents "buddies" being signed out as instructors so that they can teach their friends or kids and then giving no instruction thereafter. How many hours a year does one have to give to maintain their competency?


How do you feel about instructor checks, you sit in on a briefing and listen to how your colleague presents his briefing to his student and once a year and/or two, get the instructor to do a skills test - it provides a snap shot of his manual handling. As instructors we're very good at talking the talk but when it comes to the actual flying we lack the exposure the handling the aircraft.

I look forward to hearing the outcome from the SAGPA meeting, please keep us informed.