BCAR-T Questions

[John Boucher]

.... en toe sak daar 'n stilte oor die land!

[Gyronaut]

I am told that the certification is not far off and that things will be sorted out sooner rather than later so I am waiting patiently... for now.

[Grumpy]

patiently... for now.

Gooi Toys Boy, Gooi Toys !!!

[saraf]

HI Len

Nie om jou bubble te bars nie , ek het kontak met die UK CAA wat te doen het met die cetification.

Dit het die RAF 5 jaar geneem om section T te kry!!!

Sterkte

[THI]

HI Len

Nie om jou bubble te bars nie , ek het kontak met die UK CAA wat te doen het met die cetification.

Dit het die RAF 5 jaar geneem om section T te kry!!!

Sterkte

The problem is that the certifications are done, if I'm understanding John correctly. All SA CAA has to do is call Italy's or France CAA and ask, ever so politely, to send the revelent paper work.

As easy as fall out of a tree....or am I mistaken?

[saraf]

Hi THi

I do not think this is so easy. I have spoken to the relevant people in the UK CAA to see if I could not be of any assistance to Len, But in his email to me he stated the following:

"Hi Eben Jnr, The best point of contact is *************.



Thus far we have looked at MT-03, MTO Sport & Magni M16C. We are looking at the Calidus & the Orion.



All the best, ***"

The problem that CAA has created now , is that they have put some gyros to a standard (BCAR T) they can not just now let the other not comply to the same or a lesser standard.

[Gyronaut]

Thi, thats what I would have thought too but it appears that this process is a very long one. As I have it, the manufacturer decides which standard he chooses to be measured by. The manufacturer then has to show compliance against that standard. If the CAA chooses it can look at certifications by other equivalent authorities or test against their own set of standards. I accept that this can take a long time. I am told the paperwork submitted so far outweighs the M24. It appears that the Italian and French authorities are at the level of our Aeroclub and therefore not a CAA equivalent authority. Perhaps RAASA should take over this responsibility too, then its at the same level.

Anyway, this then begs the question, what can we learn from those who have already gone through it, to fasttrack where possible. Take the Xenon, I am unclear what its BCAR-T status is, but assuming it is BCAR-T compliant and Ebie is right (which I fear he is) then Xenon submitted its paperwork for BCAR-T in 2002? I dont think so. They were flying here, fresh from the drafting table of Raphael, by 2007 - so how did they do it? Any advice guys?

Ebie, ek hoop jy is die eenkeer verkeerd maat!

As for Grumpy, sharrup jy daar innie kamer... On a more serious note, keep Grumpy in your thoughts tomorrow, he is going in for a knee op, but should be home again tomorrow night, tough ou hy ne! Strongs Fides ou pel en passop nursies.

[Gyronaut]

Net so Ebie, dis daai 'looking' wat my pla, hoe lank kan dit vat, 5 jaar? haaibo.
I agree a set of standards need to be complied with if they are of equal standing in the authorities' eyes yes. In other words, if the authority recognises that other standard then it will be a fast-track otherwise 5 years? No man, that will kill the industry or am I confused? What do you do in the meantime? Ebie, surely you guys werent grounded for 5 years? Was there a temporary authority or another standard in force at the time that allowed you to fly?

PS Ebie's post above was only seen after I posted mine if this appears out of sync.

[THI]

So there are a couple of standard used to build a gyro?

Right,right

Maybe this is a different discussion, but which standard is the better/safer?

If BCAR-T is the best/safest, why would I buy a gyro without that certification?

Eish...my head hurts when I start to think about all this...

[saraf]

HI Len

I was grounded for 18 months on any new RAF. I had sold 4 gyros in that month when we were grounded and had 2 cancellations of that 4. The best of all was that I presented the BCAR T approval , Canadian 549 approval , Israeli approval, Chinese approval, American approval the day after they grounded us and it still took them 18 months , allot of shouting and allot of money to get back on track.

Although all RAF's on the registry with current ATF's was allowed to fly.

SO for 18 months I could not register any new RAF's , to keep in mind we sold 20 RAF's a year at that time , so you can go an make the sum that the SA CAA cost me in sales.......................... We are still keeping our options open.

So Len , I am saying that it is going to take long or not, but in my experience even with the BCAR T approval given to the SA CAA the day after they grounded us , it still took 18 months.

If I understand it correctly the approvals that the international gyros have to get is very easy. Like in Germany the MT is registered as an ultralight, so this means they almost need no approval from anybody to fly....

[John Boucher]

Then could someone shed some light on the Xenon certification then or is it a case of different courses for "different" horses? Maybe just clear the air here.....

Also, will I be able to rip their Super Duper 135 horse Turbo Rotax engine and put it in a 3-axis Cheetah seeing that it is allowed to fly in SA with that configuration or will some obscure clause or sub-paragraph of sub paragraph at someone's discretion prevent that?

[FlyingDoc]

No, Jetranger, the Xenon's sat for a long time. I thought it was only this type of delay for my Xenon. I have added hassles in that between the First one arriving in SA and mine, the factory moved to Poland. So that added to the delay.

Cannot remember the details (my just dont want too anymore!!) but we got assistance via the I believe the Germany authorities.

But yes it was very frustrating.
But look at it this way... they are still great to fly.
Alan

[Gyronaut]

Thanks Alan

Thats what I am looking forward to, where you are now, flying and forgetting all this nonsense. I am confident it will be worth the wait.

As a matter of interest, the fresh off the drafting table term I used comes from the Xenon web site : "The Xenon is from the drafting table of French aircraft designer Raphael Celier and is now being delivered..." This was in 2007: http://www.xenongyroplanes.com/pr01.htm.
They were flying here in July 2007; see viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5037&hilit=xenon.
Good for them.
Len

[FlyingDoc]

Len,
I ordered mine in July 2007, having been to the factory in Poland to check it out. I was told at that point that "all was sorted out". I had previously ,2003, had hassles when I bougth my Sycamore. A week after taking delivery we were all grounded for about six weeks because of some test that CAA required Norman to do and mine was number 36!! So I was quite sure that I was given that "assurance" at that time (July 2007) However, Delivery was for November. Eventually it arrived in Late February. In the meantime, CAA had had that very poor audit by FAA in October and all hell let loose and things were severely tightened up.

My first flight was in August 2008.

Alan

[John Boucher]

I find it strange, irrelevant of type being certified for operations in SA that this process should take so long!

Also does the Xenon have BCAR-T certification?