ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?

[Asterix]

I will not comment now - obviously I am prejudiced having been under the boot of a croaking towerguy - see my video - decide for yourself.

I will take all criticism aimed at me like a man. Now watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiwnLPHPvkw

[ZULU1]

King Shaka ATC rocks, great service, jacked up and very switched on, and extremely (repeat extremely micro friendly) FARB I cant even understand (and the comms are clear just the other end) and will NEVER ever go there again, you were lucky to understand them ! Just fly around them as its easier....

[frikie]

Hi Asrerix.

I listened to the clip more that once to make sure. Here is my take.
You said that you are inbound from the north west. Then was instructed to call west abeam the field 4500 or below. I'm not sure what all was said due to possible editing, but then you report east of the field, which confuses me a bit.

Just one of two pointer so make your life a bit easier.

When the tower calls you, just say : "xxxxxxx go ahead"

Make sure you read his instructions back as given, this will ensure that there is no confusion. i.e. He said "call west abeam the field", you replied "copy".
The correct read back would be : "to report west abeam the field next "

In the second scenario ATC ask you to expedite and give you traffic info. Your read back is that you would look out. This is not correct either. Just read back the instruction. i.e. "Copied the traffic, well will expedite."

When you call ATC the first time you establish communication, then give you message. There after you don't need to establish communication again. Just go ahead with your transmission.
e.g. Lanseria good day.
"xxx good day go ahead."
Now you have establish communication, here after you can merely transmit when you need to speak to him.

Therefore if he request you to report abeam the field next, there are no need to call him and then in a second transmission advise him that you are abeam. You can just say " Lanseria Abeam the field".

The aim is to get the message across clear with minimal RT. When it is busy and there are a lot of unnecessary talking it become very tiring for all involved.

I hope this help. I know the frustration, its not always easy to her the instructions, and then it is all this funny lingo, but bear with it, it does become easier every time.

Regards

[frikie]

Ok, all the kiss faces, read "Registration".

[ZULU1]

Its a very good subject matter and irrelevant how the thread started, its important that the flying community as a whole does not see any micro/lsa/gyro pilot as a cowboy.

I believe that Ballito was/is a test case for the rest of the country, if we failed then I think they would never have allowed any Micro aircraft landing site (even with a transponder) near controlled airspace. Irrespective of the pilot/s credentials. Anyway I do believe that I should share this cut from a letter sent to DJ. Hats off to DJ, Wally and the entire club.

"Perhaps you could pass this on to the rest of your club members.

Having been operational for a year now, I would once again like to compliment your club and its members on the professional manner in which they have conducted their operations. We have not had one reported incident involving microlights in the year, and your club is a credit to microlight flying in general. I would be grateful if you could pass on our thanks to your members.

Kind regards

Kevin O'Brien"

Should any other club or airstrip face similar issues then there is no question that Ballito and most probably Rietfontein as well will be able to share experiences for the good of the sport.
That will obviously include the negotiations, airspace allocation and other operational issues that have been dealt with. We have our own club squawk code.

Now we can just fly...But DJ is hoarse after a days flying ! Good project concluded.

[Tumbleweed]

Maybe it's coz they're unfamiliar with your foreign accent an all, coming from accross the borerewors curtain.

They've also known to handle more than 8 movements and hour at Oribi so perhaps the pressure was building.

Come and have a few dops with them after our airshow, they all seem to be good okes.

Just note, when using Pinedene routing East to West they ask you to report overhead the Rooihuiskraal concrete resevoir on exit.

[Asterix]

Boerwors curtain accent! True.

My point is - I can't hear the first guy - but I can hear the second person. I suffer from the problem that I rarely fly through ATC space - I almost never have to, and I find it intimidating to start of with. Then, if I don't get clear instructions,(or none cause there is nobody there) enter an airspace and get instructions later on which I can not make out clearly / does not make sense to me - the level of my feeling of being in an intimidating environment escalates, with the resultant stuff-up.

I would venture to say that there are quite a couple of trike pilots who never / rarely speak to towers, and who find it intimidating also. This is my point. The lady in the second instance understood where we entered, where we were going and she was clear and audible to me. I got the feeling that she thought of me as important enough to guide me safely through her space, (safe for me,and other traffic), whilst in the first instance I felt like being a mere nuisance.

As I say, I take all criticism on the chin - no worries there. I have made a point of brushing up on AC - tower talk as well since this happened, but I still maintain that if people speak loud and clear to me, I will actually hear them, without trying to decipher them.

[Bundy]

Hi Asterix,

I would have been in the same boat! I am one of those pilots who just stay away from controlled airspace because as you say, it is very rare that I would have to enter such areas. The FASK fly in this year was my first time talking to an ATC and I must admit although I was nervous, the ATC on duty was very much like the 2nd ATC in your clip. Very courteous and spoke very clearly. Immediately I felt a little more at home. (Even had an outbound Boeing from somewhere chirp us that we were crazy as it was -4 celcius on the runway when he boarded! haha)

I am the first to admit that my radio work is probably the weakest point in my flying as I just do not get to do much of it often enough. I am also in the habit of just saying "Copy" or "Willco" and I know I need to work on this aspect of things myself!

That said, the first ATC was clearly not very helpful (even absent at times). Do you think phoning ahead would have prepared the ATC better? I think they sometimes dont realise that we are much slower than normal traffic and as you say, we still have wind noise etc filling our headsets and often have to ask for a repeat. Just think he got a bit Irate too quickly.

Other than this hiccip, it looks like you had a lekker trip to that side of the world!

[Tumbleweed]

I was told that apparently all new student ppl's have to spend time in the tower to see and hear whats its like. All in company said it was a great idea.

Why not phone up a tower and ask to spend time with them?

[Asterix]

That is a good idea Tumbleweed - but a bit "ex post facto" in my case - I already ran into sh.. with a tower. But I'm all for it. My question however still stands - are trikes a mere nuisance to ATC's? Look, you have to draw a distinction between trikers whose field falls within / near controlled airspace - people who are used to this, who talk to these guys every time they take of, and who also probably have a personal relationship with the tower and its personnel. And the rest, who almost never fly into controlled airspace. I think that PPL's fall into a different group here, since a lot of them hangar at airports - and fly to other airports - so same thing - controlled airspace is part of every single take-of and landing.

I am not used to ATC's. Therefore it is ALREADY intimidating to me. All I ask is - SPEAK UP and be CLEAR. And BE IN THE TOWER. I will never sound like a CPL over the radio, and yes I will maybe speak too much - but I would rather be sure that the ATC understands where I am, etc etc.

A quote from Johan Lottering's excellent book: (Avoiding Fatal Flying Traps)

"The observation is pilots, even veterans, are readily intimidated by ATC. It appears to be the 'ATC Superman Effect', whereby every word or remark by ATC achieves an exponentially increased impact value and effect. ATC's words seem to blow us through a brickwall, as in the super-hero comic books. Pilots simply cringe if reprimanded on an open air frequency reverberating like a national broadcast heard by their peers and passengers."

[Sukkelaar]

I have flown into manned airspace plenty and still find it intimidating. I therefor always call them by phone a day or two ahead and let them know I am coming through and exactly what my plans are and what they would expect from me and I ask to speak to the person that would be on duty at that particular time.

This has really helped me to not be as nervous as I know who I am talking to and I know what to expect.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[Tribal Croc]

Okay here is my 2c worth

Most “trike pilots” usually fly away from CTR’s and TMA’s and not from controlled aerodromes. We all have done our radio course and are in possession of a radio licence but our main radio skills are position broadcasting when flying and then the normal how’s your mother crap talking.

Out here where I fly there is hardly any traffic and my radio broadcasting is the bare minimum but still when I broadcast I try to be as professional as I can.

I am one of those guys that when I go to Pretoria or even Joburg I always have my hand held with me and as I drive I like to tune into the relevant airports and listen to radio chatter.

I have attended only 2 fly ins where they had an ATC and were dead scared that I would stuff it up. On both occasions the ATC where professional and I could understand all there instructions.

One day when I am in the Pretoria region I would like to fly the Pinedene route and think this would be a great learning experience in communication with ATC’s also one of my goals is to land at Wonderboom for a breakfast.

I think as “trike pilots” we shouldn’t feel intimidated by ATC’s and give ourselves more credit ,after all we do the same radio procedures as PPL pilots and we have every right flying alongside them in the same sky.

Now saying all this I will leave you with:
EAST IS EAST AND WEST IS WEST

[Gaylord Focker]

My 2 cents worth

First mistake you made is you told him you had entered his airspace.
Big mistake first you knock then you enter , never ever just cross into an Airports CTR,
As Demon said act like a Pilot and they will treat you accordingly , Lanseria is great and professional

[Bundy]

Hi Gaylord,

I think Asterix was told at the time he entered that the aerodrome was "unmanned". IE ATC not in tower? What does one do in that case then? I would also have entered the CTR if told it was unmanned? As long as I have Comms with the traffic inside the CTR I see no problem entering?

[Gaylord Focker]

Mmmm
Just taking the topic at face value , if indeed it was unmanned airfield then sure make the appropriate calls and continue with the pattern ,