Rotax 583 powered KR2

[Henni]

Hi all,

Found this very, very interesting thread. Herewith some extracts from it:

What is the fastest ultralight/LSA available in SA? (and any contenders)

Flamingo probably in the top 5.
http://www.wingsntracks.co.za/downloads ... wnload.pdf

Super sabre close by
http://www.aircraftafrica.co.za/Specifications.html

ctsw in the same range
http://www.ctflight.co.za/comparisons_performance.html

In the LSA catagory I am yet to see a plane that is faster than a KR2. That includes the Pioneer 300 (got the proof on the way back from Tempe)

...Hi Dale, since you've told us a few times that there is no way my KR can beat the the Pioneer, why not make it a proper race. Point A to point B, no navigating. That way we will REALLY see who is the fastest. Name the time and place! O ja, what is the VNE on the P300? nou weer?

So: Who won this race?

And the answer is...... KR2. Powered by Volksie nogal. :D Flamingo second then Pioneer.

Well done Ferdi
You and your KR flew the pants off of the opposiition.
Good luck with your quest for those records.
Dale

So, the KR2 is still very, very good value for the money and/or engine size, even to this day!

Keep well all,

Henni

[Henni]

So!

Now my next quest is to get to the bottom of this:

...Who of you fly your KR2 regularly two up? If so, what engine are you using and what is the performance like in this configuration? Also, what is your minimum runway requirements?
Henni

Short answer.......nobody.

What?
You mean to tell me none of you use that able machine to take your spouses places to! What's the main reason, is it too small inside, is the cg the problem or is the performance just THAT marginal two up? Is any of the above only because of our altitude or is it the same in other parts of the world as well?

If any of you should build a KR2 again with two occupants in mind, what would you change?
Henni

And for this I'll have to contact other KR2 owners all over the world for I am not contend with the answer as received. There must be more to it!

Stay tuned, for the mean answer from all I WILL find and post over here for all to see. I have seen too many pics of KRs flying with two up all over the world to accept this as the final call...

Hi all,

I’ve asked all South African KR2 owners if anyone flies his KR2 regularly with two up and the short answer I received was NO! I find this hard to believe and would like the opinion of other KR2 flyers all over the world on this so that I can share with those in South Africa.

Please be so kind as to give me your thoughts and feedback on this – Is the KR2 a two place machine? If not and you were to build one again with this in mind, what would you change to make it so.

Tx for any feedback,

Henni,
South Africa

So, let's wait & see what feedback I receive from the rest of the KR2 fraternity from other parts of the world...

In the meantime, here's an appetite teaser you can chew on in the meantime!

Keep well all,

Henni

[Rudix]

Hi all,

Found this very, very interesting thread. Herewith some extracts from it:

What is the fastest ultralight/LSA available in SA? (and any contenders)

Flamingo probably in the top 5.
http://www.wingsntracks.co.za/downloads ... wnload.pdf

Super sabre close by
http://www.aircraftafrica.co.za/Specifications.html

ctsw in the same range
http://www.ctflight.co.za/comparisons_performance.html

In the LSA catagory I am yet to see a plane that is faster than a KR2. That includes the Pioneer 300 (got the proof on the way back from Tempe)

...Hi Dale, since you've told us a few times that there is no way my KR can beat the the Pioneer, why not make it a proper race. Point A to point B, no navigating. That way we will REALLY see who is the fastest. Name the time and place! O ja, what is the VNE on the P300? nou weer?

So: Who won this race?

And the answer is...... KR2. Powered by Volksie nogal. :D Flamingo second then Pioneer.

Well done Ferdi
You and your KR flew the pants off of the opposiition.
Good luck with your quest for those records.
Dale

So, the KR2 is still very, very good value for the money and/or engine size, even to this day!

Keep well all,

Henni

Yes, interesting stuff!

And the very KR2 that won that race is none other than my baby



Thanks for all the interesting posts my friend!
Keep well,
Rudi

[Henni]

Hi Rudi,

Thought it would make you proud. That's why I say, between you & me we'll have KR2s to the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Fast & powerful versus light & low hp. Would be nice to compare. Not even in America do they have those two extreme examples for comparison!

Keep well mate,

Henni

[Rudix]

Hi Rudi,

Thought it would make you proud. That's why I say, between you & me we'll have KR2s to the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Fast & powerful versus light & low hp. Would be nice to compare. Not even in America do they have those two extreme examples for comparison!

Keep well mate,

Henni

Hi Henni!

Yes, will be interesting to do that comparison! And between the 2 we will have "Fokkol Bang"

I hope the work on your plane goes smoothly without any unforeseen technical difficulties. And please take plenty photos!

Have fun my friend,
Rudi

[krjockey]

Henni,

as far as I am aware neither of the two active KR pilots, Willie or Carlton is flying two up. It can be done..... I did so, even with the Revmaster installed but it wasnt ideal, its very tight and it just flies so much better when its lighter.

Ferdi

[Henni]

Hi Ferdi,

Tx for the feedback mate. I really hope ours will work out two up, cause we intend to use it to the fullest to go places. Thats why I want to know from owners what they would do different next time. It has already been stretched, widened, wing span increased, power increased. I want to know if anyone has yet built the ideal two place KR2.

Carlton has a problem with the cg with a pax in the seat. Hower, not so with UKU that he's just finished revamping. Maybe things will now change for him. Willie has the ideal combination, both light and extremely powerful. Maybe he just likes flying by himself. Can't say though as I've not really had much conversation with him as yet...

You really gave the KR2 respect over here with that wonderful creation of yours. Man, you created something really awesome!

Cheers mate, my hat off to you!

Henni

[Rudix]

Hi Ferdi, nice to see you here!

Henni, I know in the USA many guys fly 2 up, maybe one of the reasons we see it less seldom around here is that many of our runways are a bit shorter than in the USA?

The British couple did fly 2 up plus LOTS of luggage and even a raft at one point from the UK to Australia in a standard KR2 with a 80hp Jabiru engine.

It also depends a lot on the size/weight of the 2 people....

Regards,
Rudi

[Henni]

Hi Rudi,

Yes,that's quite a feat they've achieved.

Ferdi,

Would you maybe care to share the recipe of that engine with us mere mortals at some stage. Would be awesome to assemble something similar. Apart from balancing, did you do anything special to eliminate flutter?

Cheers all,

Henni

[krjockey]

Henni,

if the fuselage is stretched , widened, bigger wingspan etc, then of course it is a different story and I cannot really comment as I only have experience in the normal KR.
It worked out OK for me because I am of average build and my wife is very light and short. Our combined weight was only 110kg so even flying with the 70hp Revmaster was OK.
I think Willie have a very nice combination and it will have no problem taking two people reliably, but the size of the cockpit remains tight for two adults .
I think a 3300 engine or a 912 in an S model will make the KR definitly more suitable for longer cross country trips.

w.r.t. VYZ, I cannot take credit for building it unfortunately, the airframe was built by Martin Clarke. I did however build the turbo engine , and maybe Ill drop a secret or two when I meet you at a fly in or so. I never did anything more to the control surfaces but I stuck to the original VNE.

hope it helps

Ferdi

[Henni]

Hi Ferdi & all,

Thank you so much for your feedback. "Fraid we weigh in at a tad more - my carcass alone makes for the two of you! Yes, I'd like to know the secret behind your engine.

Okay, with regards to two-up, answers are streaming in from all over the world. I'll share all those over here:

My kr2 has been flown with two people in it since 1993.
The two brothers I bought it from flew it cross country together and had no issues with two up flying.
Also their mother flew with them on a regular basis. They were not heavyweights average Pilots 160 and 180 pounds. With the exception of their mother of course! She was lighter!
I have yet to fly it with my wife but we plan on doing quite a bit together this summer.
My plane is a stock KR2 weighing in at 612 pounds. Power is a Great Plains Volkswagen conversion 2180. 70 hp at 3400 rpm.
Doran
N186RC

See the pic of Dorans KR2 attached!

Is the KR2 a two place machine is a different question to 'how often do you fly two up'. If the rest of the world is anything like Oz, between 80% and 90% of recreational flights are solo, regardless of the type of aircraft.

To answer your core question, I'm building mine about 4" wider than plans
(KR2 and KR2S are the same width on the plans) and I've moved the widest point back to where the pilot's shoulders are. I understand Ken Rand wasn't a real big fella, so two of him probably would have been OK. Two of me (6 ft 105kg) not so much.

TK

I am building my KR2S now with 2 up in mind. This is why I have widened the shoulder. Area to 43" outboard width instead of the plans spec.
I have increased the rest of the fuselage to compensate for the differences

I have owned 2 KR2 and never flew a passenger in either one of them. Build a different plane designed for the mission. Ken was very light and could have easily carried another like him. I have seen many KR2 and KR2S carry passengers, big pilots and big passengers. I just never thought that I was a good enough pilot to do it.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics?

Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN

Daniel R. Heath -?Lexington, SC

I've said many times that the width of the "plans-built" KR2 is simply too narrow for two normal adults. I weigh 138 pounds and my wife is about the same (both skinny by American standards), and we're a tight fit in N891JF.
I've flown in serveral stock-width KR2s, and I can tell you that anything longer than an hour is going to be painful for two folks that pass for "normal" these days. The big problem is what to do with the passenger's shoulder and arm, because two people's shoulders can't occupy the same space at the same time! So the passenger has to put his arm behind the pilot's head. Sounds easy enough, but the geometry of humans is such that it's very uncomfortable, and that hand has to be folded up because there's an aft
deck there and the hand won't fit otherwise. Hands don't like to be
folded for an hour.

What people may not understand about the KR2S is that it is built to exactly the same width. The one dimension that begged to be changed the most, went untouched! I'd flown in KR2s with several folks before I got to the boat stage on mine, and widened mine 2.5 inches at the shoulder. That number was arrived at after measuring my wife and I with an inch between our shoulders.
Wider folks will want more width. Widening the plane is not a huge hit to speed.

Weight is another consideration. I think nothing of flying folks in N56ML,
especially light ones. The difference in climb rate and pitch sensitivity is barely noticeable. Throw a 250 pounder in there and it makes a difference on both fronts, especially climb rate, and I have 130 HP out front, but it's still doable, and at least they physically fit. I've already decided that N891JF (stock width KR2) is going to be a single seater, unless the weight and balance has improved since I last flew it.
According to the W&B sheet, it starts out very close to the front of the CG range with a light pilot and full fuel, and it was still noticeably more pitch sensitive than N56ML (widened KR2S). I'll be doing a new weight and balance soon, and I probably shed a few pounds during the "refurb" effort.
Let me get some more hours on it and I'll report back, but for the moment I'm thinking it's a single seater except for kids. Some Brit can correct me if I'm wrong, but the Brit rules for KR2 gross weight and CG location is so tight that kids is all they can carry.

For more on this kind of stuff, see http://www.n56ml.com/kopinion.html .
After I get N891JF back in the air, I'm going to rewrite this stuff, having gained more KR2 experience in a plane with weight and CG limits that I've verified, as well as KR2S experience that needs to be updated as well...

Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.N56ML.com

As Mark said, a standard KR2 or KR2S is very tight.
In 1998 I flew with my friend in his standard KR2 ZS-WEC from Port Elizabeth where we live to Margate for the annual EAA convention. It was a non-stop flight of 3 hours and 20 min.
I am not a tall person but back then I was pushing weights and weighed a solid 75KG and he was about 85KG and only an inch taller than I am.
When we stepped out of the plane on the other side, I realized that we actually stank hehehe. It was a warm day and full sun all the way.

I have made many modifications to my KR2S but I had already built my fuselage when I discovered KRNET so that is the only thing I wish I could do over.

Regards
Dene Collett
http://www.denecollett.com

Well, that's the replies thus far. Sure there'll be a great many more.

Keep well all,

Henni

[Henni]

The canopy was fitted about 6" above the longerons to improve headroom. This
left him with a blank area of infill in which he built and installed a
bubble window. This bubble, as well as improving visibility, could be opened
to improve airflow on the ground while taxying as well as a convenient area
to stick an elbow in a tight cockpit.

Unfortunately we lost Graham 6 months ago to cancer. Some notes from the
secretary of our local SAAA club (edited slightly):

I have some sad news, one of our long standing SAAA members passed away on
the weekend. Graham Schott lost his battle with cancer.

Graham was a staunch advocate for SAAA. Always promoting SAAA where ever
he went in his little plane VH-XXS (XXS for eXtra eXtra Small). I can't
remember how long Graham has been flying his little KR-2 but it seems like a
long long time. Sue and Graham have flown that little plane everywhere.
All around Queensland's outback, Avalon, Mangalore, Cowra, Wagga, Narromine.
If there is one thing that Graham has inspired me to do it is to fly my
plane like he flew his. A plane should be flown and not sit in a hangar,
and Graham and Sue got the max out of his/their little plane.

There a many stories to tell about Graham and Sue to many to tell here but
to mention a few, their flying outback trek around Queensland, the time he
lost his prop due to a crankshaft failure, Avalon and back, and they would
turn up at all the major SAAA events and have a story to tell. Graham and
Sue were also involved in the Caloundra Flying club with Graham and Sue
committee members of that club for many years and again promoting aviation
and SAAA.

I'm building as a single seat. I'm 6'2" and stretched my KR2S 3"s
forward of the main spar and 14"s aft. Fuselage width was kept pretty much
standard. In the late 70's when doing flight training in a Cessna 150 my
CFI was as large as me. Recalling those days in the hot Texas sun,
swapping sweat and being far closer to another human than I care to
remember helped me make my decision. The majority of my fight hours
are solo anyway. It's hard enough to get someone up in a production
airplane let alone one glued and glassed together.

My wife applauded my decision.
Dan Prichard
Portland Oregon.

I've wondered why we don't slightly offset seats in narrow aircraft so
that shoulders are separated by six inches for and aft? Hips rarely
move much when arms are always active. Call it semi-tandem seating?
I've said many times that the width of the "plans-built" KR2 is simply
too narrow for two normal adults.
Peter

Had a friend with a standard KR who built an 8" deep cushions for his
wife. The cushion was hollowed out in back and could be filled with
clothing. They went everywhere in that little bird. Google "VH-XXS"
stood for eXtra eXtra small .
Paul, Brisbane, Australia.

That works great for short little women, but those are few and far
between where I live. Other than my wife, it's mostly large-to-huge
guys who are building KRs that I end up flying! The aft spar bounds
the back of the seating arrangement, so you can't go aft, and the only
way you can go forward 6" is for short folks. If you go to the
trouble of setting up staggered seating, which I've yet to see, it'd
have to be your wife (or
girlfriend) to rate that kind of effort, and most women are too smart
to fly in KRs, my wife being a notable exception. It sounds viable
though.

So in all the flying I've done in N56ML I'd estimate under 1% of it
being with a passenger (mostly familiarization flights at the
Gathering), except my brother has flown down to my father's farm with
me a lot, so maybe I'm up to 2% with a passenger, and he's smaller
than I am.

I'm not trying discourage two-up flight in a KR, but build it wide,
long, with wing tanks,and put a big engine in it, or you are flirting
with not enough power to get you out of a jam. A lot of folks would
say "go build an RV", but there have been enough successful KRs that
have blazed the trail already...for occasional two-up flying, they
work fine. If you think most of your flying will be dual (and you are
probably wrong), find something else to build and fly, then arrive at
the same conclusion has many of us...build a single-seater...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com

Read more on VH-XXS here.

Cheers all,

Henni

[Henni]

Hi all,

Gave all my tools to my sons as I seriously thought I'll never build something again. Now I pay the price for it. But alas, I've at least "started" to create something again & that is a good start. The flu still has the better of me, so nothing goes fast.

On my to get list:

1. a Vice!!!
2. a File!!!
3. a Press drill!!!
4. a Proper hacksaw!!!
5. a Workbench!!!
6. a Garage would be nice, but for the moment the carport will just HAVE to do!

Last pic shows the cockpit space of a plans built KR2.

Keep well all,

Henni

[AndreJ]

Ongemaklik Klein!!!!

[Henni]

Hi all,

a Few more nice pics.

Henni