Raven + Jabiru 2200 or 3300?

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Raven + Jabiru 2200 or 3300?

Postby T4flyer » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:32 pm

Hi all,

I own an early Carl Babst, Raven (Great little plane, many hours of fun and many more to come I hope) I pulled it out of the air some time ago to rebuild the engine (Type 4 VW) I have collected all the parts and I am just about ready to start to put it all together.

However, I have often considered (lusted after would be a better description) installing the much lighter Jabiru 2200. Does anyone have any experience or any thoughts on the combination? I see Jabiru offers FWF kits for the Zodiac 601/Jab 2200 and 3300 so installation should be "Fairly" easy.

I have considered the Jabiru 3300, but my thought are that it is a lot more expensive and could be overkill for the standard 601's brick like aerodynamics anyway. (after all she flies great on the old VW 2200cc conversion)

Any way, any thoughts or advice would be appreciated

T4Flyer
Last edited by T4flyer on Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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grostek
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby grostek » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:53 pm

Hi T4flyer,

How many hours did the VW 2.2 do before you decided to overhaul the engine and how much is the overhaul going to cost you?

Kind regards,

Gunter Rostek
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby justin.schoeman » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:56 pm

I don't know of one flying, but James? on the forum is building one. Performance should be marginally better than the VW, but useful load goes up. (If you don't use up your useful load, obviously performance is even better!)

The Raven rear fuselage is a bit beefier (read heavier) than the stock 601, so you may need a custom engine mount and cowl to push it forward a few cm. Otherwise you may end up adding balast - and end with the same FWF weight as the VW...
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby T4flyer » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:44 pm

Hi Justin,

I was a little concerned about the C of G with the lighter engine but checking out the FWF kit for the Jab 2200 I see they use the standard Jab 3300cc cowl and push the shorter 2200cc engine to the front of the cowl on an extended mount. Also with the VW Type 4 engine (with starter) the engine needs to be pushed right back to the firewall and the battery's placed behind the seats to maintain the corret C of G.

I spoke to Carl and he told me the Raven flies well at the coast on the Rotax 582 (65Hp) I have flown a Raven fitted with the 2180 Great Planes engine and although it did not perform as well as my my plane with its Type 4, it was more than capable of powering the plane. To me its about bang for bucks (and I have limited bucks!) I "think" my Raven will perform better with a Jab 2200cc than with my much heavier T4 2200cc and that the 3300cc 115Hp Jab engine would not add sufficient "bang" to justify the extra cost, More climb maybe but not much in speed improvement. again these are only my thought and an awful lot of my money if I get it wrong, thats why I'm asking for anyone else's thoughts or advise.

Cheers, T4Flyer.
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby T4flyer » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:13 pm

I think I read on this forum that someone had fitted a Jabiru 2200cc engine to a Bushbaby, Does anyone know the details of the owner, I would love to know how the BB flies with a Jab 2200, it might help settle my mind (and open my wallet!)

Cheers, T4Flyer.
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby justin.schoeman » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:22 pm

Yup. Experimenting with engines is nervous business... I am a bit scared myself trying the AeroVee (2180 type 1 VW) on the Raven HDS. The smaller wings may need a bit more oomph than the VW can provide.

There are two 601HDS with Jabiru 2200 engines (that I have found out about), and none of them fly well. Both are 'porkers' though, weighing in at more than 600lbs empty.

Can you give us more info on your type 4 engine? (My backup engine - if the type 1 isn't powerful enough - is a type 4 that I would like to build as a hand propped 2.6l engine.)
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby T4flyer » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:25 pm

Hi Gunter,

I don't know or want to know the amount I have spent on the engine and parts, but I could work it out if I had to as I kept most of the receipts. Anyway there are some of the engine specs, all I need to do now is assemble. (or blow all my savings and fit a Jab 2200cc)

• VW 2.0L block, Bored to accept the Mahle cylinders, fitted with new propeller hub bearing in nose of case, all oil gallery plugs drilled, taped and fitted with brass NPT threaded plugs.
• VW 2.0L “71mm” crank, crack tested and machined to accept the propeller hub.
• VW 2.0L connecting rods, resized, re-bushed, notched and balanced to - - - - - - - - - - - -Big ends: (1-4) = 547.7 grams, Small ends (2&4) = 257.6, 1 = 257.5, 3 = 257.4 grams. Overall 2 = 805.4, 4 = 805.3, 1 = 805.3, 3 = 805.1 grams
• Con Rod bolts “new” ARP 104-6006 (sourced from “No Limit Motorsport”)
• Big-end bearing “new” STD size
• Main bearings “new” +0.010”
• VW 2.0L flywheel, lightened to 2.732 Kilogram

• Porsche 914 cylinder heads
• Cylinder Heads machined for twin spark plugs (second plugs 10mm)
• Cylinder Heads = chamber capacity matched at = 58cc.
• Inlet Valves = 42mm, Intervalves (VW 2.0L – Porsche 914) Part # 039-109-601-G. (sourced from “Pelican Parts”)
• Exhaust Valves = 36mm Sodium Filled, Intervalves (VW 2.0L – Porsche 914) Part # 039-109-611L-M154. (sourced from “Pelican Parts”)
• New valve collets. (sourced from “Pelican Parts”)
• Heavy-duty valve springs. (sourced from “Pelican Parts”)
• Rocker Shafts= New heavy duty # 8216 (sourced from “The Type IV Store”)
• Rocker Spacer Kit # 8220 (sourced from “The Type IV Store”)

• Cylinders = Mahle cast aluminum. (Nikasil re-plated by NSC Electroplating)
• Pistons = JE Pistons, custom made 100mm, (using the Mahle pistons that were used with the original piston & cylinders as a pattern) piston crown machined with a dish of 80 x 1.5mm (all checked @ 8.4cc)
• Pistons balanced. (Pistons and matching pins balanced to 1 = 597.2. – 2, 3, &4 = 597.4 grams.
• Piston Rings = JE Pistons, 100mm (Porsche) Part # J660U1-3937 “ bore 3.937” Phosphate 1.5 x 1.75 x 3.0.

• Cam = WebCam, grind 73. (sourced from “Aircooled.net”)
• Cam followers = WebCam, High performance “solid” Part # 00-263 (sourced from “Cyberauto”)
• Cam Gear = Scat, Type 4 Bolt-on Aluminum cam gear – STD. Part # 20171STD. (sourced from “Aircooled.net”)
• Cam Bearings = Mahle original, double thrust Part # VW021.198.541. (sourced from “The Type IV Store” Part number # 4312)

• Oil Pump = Schadek, 30mm. (blueprinted and case oil galleries ported to match pump. (sourced from “Aircooled.net”)
• New oil pump cover and cover nuts (sourced from “Aircooled.net”)
• Oil Pump fitted with a 2mm aluminum spacer between pump and oil pump (gives better clearance between oil pump and cam bolts and better lines up pump and case oil galleries).
• Cylinder shims machined 2 x 0.25mm and 2 x 0.45mm to give a deck height of 0.93mm.
• Static compression ratio set at 8.561 – 1.
• Pushrods = Manton Chromoly 3/8” (sourced from “Aircooled.net”)

• Ignition is by two fully electronic, fully independent units, each firing its own set of plugs (no distributor at all) with 28 degrees of advance at 3,000 RPM
• Induction is normal atmospheric via a simple slide type aero-carb. (Mounted UNDER the engine!)

Cheers, T4Flyer
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby justin.schoeman » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:25 pm

T4flyer wrote:I think I read on this forum that someone had fitted a Jabiru 2200cc engine to a Bushbaby, Does anyone know the details of the owner, I would love to know how the BB flies with a Jab 2200, it might help settle my mind (and open my wallet!)

Cheers, T4Flyer.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10695

KFA is at Bethlehem this weekend. PM him, and I am sure he will send some details when he gets back.
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby T4flyer » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm

Justin,

Looks like that BB flies pretty well on the Jab 2200. I'm a little surprised that you say it doesn't work well with the 601 HDS, I would have thought that with the higher speed anticipated with the HDS it would have worked better. As Carl said, a Raven with a Rotax 582 works well at the coast, but what are we to do up here in JHB. I have seen a few Ravens with the 80hp Rotax 912's in them and to the best of my knowledge they fly ok. I would love a 100hp rotax, just cant afford it and a 115hp Jab is +-R40k more expensive than the 85hp 2200cc.

I hate to be the guinea pig, thats why I'm very nervous of putting the cash on the barrel.

T4Flyer.
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Re: Ravin + Jabiru 2200 ?

Postby justin.schoeman » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:43 pm

The HDS has 25% less wing area than the HD, so you need a little more power to keep it in the air...

If you hang around a few months, I am sure James will post his test flying results here.

Justin
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Re: Raven + Jabiru 2200 or 3300?

Postby T4flyer » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:26 am

Hi All,

Spent most of the weekend on the net looking for information on any 601's flying with Jabiru 2200, found absolutely nothing... some pictures and FWF kits, but no performance data at all.

Now I'm more than a little worried that I might spend all this lovely money on an engine (Jab 2200) that "might" not perform as expected up here in JHB on a hot summers day. What my time on the net did make me seriously consider was the Jabiru 3300 for my HD. I found a really nice FWF kit from Jabiru USA, a 5 hour DVD set (recommended by Jabiru USA) on the installation of the Jabiru 3300/Zodiac 601

The only drawback I can see is that spending so much money is making my tummy very :(> . I'm trying to convince myself its still a good deal (engine, FWF kit and prop is still less than a new 912s)

Please help convince me :? is it to much engine for a Raven, or what?

Regards T4Flyer.
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Re: Raven + Jabiru 2200 or 3300?

Postby James Bentley » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:01 am

Hi T4flyer

I am busy building one of Carl's Ravens and have fitted the Jab 2200, the firewall forward kit from the USA is designed for the 6 cylinder engine but is supplied for with a mount for the 85hp. The cowls are not correct and I have adjusted them to accommodate the smaller engine, maximizing cooling air flow with minimum drag is what I am aiming at. The lower cowl is done and I am presently busy with the top cowl pattern. I am happy to supply you parts if necessary as I am already making another set for a friend who is also building a taildragger Raven with the same engine.

The aircraft will fly well provided you keep it as light as possible, it will not perform like a 912 powered Raven though!!

Progress on my build is rather slow I am afraid, I have so many other activities which take up a lot of my time (**)

PM me and I will send you photos and details of what I have done so far.

James
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Re: Raven + Jabiru 2200 or 3300?

Postby grostek » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:56 am

T4flyer wrote:Hi All,

Spent most of the weekend on the net looking for information on any 601's flying with Jabiru 2200, found absolutely nothing... some pictures and FWF kits, but no performance data at all.

Now I'm more than a little worried that I might spend all this lovely money on an engine (Jab 2200) that "might" not perform as expected up here in JHB on a hot summers day. What my time on the net did make me seriously consider was the Jabiru 3300 for my HD. I found a really nice FWF kit from Jabiru USA, a 5 hour DVD set (recommended by Jabiru USA) on the installation of the Jabiru 3300/Zodiac 601

The only drawback I can see is that spending so much money is making my tummy very :(> . I'm trying to convince myself its still a good deal (engine, FWF kit and prop is still less than a new 912s)

Please help convince me :? is it to much engine for a Raven, or what?

Regards T4Flyer.
Hi T4 Flyer,

I asked a similar question a while ago on a 601 yahoo group, See the link below and then you can read what the guys who have actual flying aircraft have to say.
My question startes at message #137.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/601_HD-HD ... nt=-30&l=1

Kind regards,

Gunter Rostek
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Re: Raven + Jabiru 2200 or 3300?

Postby justin.schoeman » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:44 am

Most of those replies were about HDS aircraft, which typically require a bit more oomph than the HD. The 2200 will work, but I don't know if it will be that much better than the VW.

The 3300 is generally considered (read the matronics forums) to be the best engine for the HDS and XL models. Will definitely work on the HD too, but may be overkill!
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Re: Raven + Jabiru 2200 or 3300?

Postby T4flyer » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:57 pm

Hi Guys,

This is how I see it:

Jab 2200, should give about the same performance as my existing Type 4 VW 2200cc (not sure about the T4's HP, but seems to perform somewhat better than the Type1 versions) will save over 30 kgs
Jab 3300, should give improved performance but with increased engine cost (extra R40 odd thousand) and increased fuel usage. will save 10 kgs.

FWF kit for both engines cost the same. Jab 2200 "may" actually perform worse than my existing engine (unlikely I know). Also, if at some stage I decided to fit HDS wings (been thinking about that one too) it seems the 2200 could then be very underpowered.

James, if I may ask, why did you and your friend settle on a Jab 2200 rather than the 3300, was it purely about the cost or did you have some other reason.

Guys this is driving me crazy, accepting that I can't afford a 912s, if you were spending my money, not yours, which would you choose Jab 2200 or 3300 and why?

Cheers, T4Flyer :? :?

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