New licence law - a summary

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Fairy Flycatcher
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Postby Fairy Flycatcher » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:20 pm

ZU-ANE wrote:Hi FF, let me see if I get this:
1. If you are a current CPL you can do freelance comercial work
2. If you are a RPL or PPL with a comercial rating you are not allowed to do freelance work but have to fall under a flight school or some other comercial opperator?? If so why?
Does this mean you cannot go gamecounting etc and be paid for it if you are not a registered operator???
No CPL may do commercial work, unless it is for a commercial operator, with a current and valid Air Services Licence and Operating certificate. You may freelance to these organizations with your CPL, but you may not do any commercial work whatsoever if these things are not in place. The commercial work is then limited to whatever falls under the scope of the ASL and OC.

You do get an air services licence and operating certificate for crop-spraying, game counting, arial photography, surveilance etc.

The same will apply to a Part 96 Authorization,as you may freelance with your Authorization (special rating) to any operator with the right licences and approvals, but the commercial work will be limited to Class III work, which excludes charter of any kind (both cargo and passenger, scheduled and unscheduled charter)

So whoever told you that a CPL may charge for anything, purely because he has the pilots licence, doesn't know what is going on. To each operation there are 3 aspects, there is the pilots licence requirements, the aircraft requirements and the operational requirements. All three have to be met to be legal.
Annie
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Postby ZU-ANE » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:04 pm

FF, another thing is the yearly renewal. Why do we have to renew the licence yearly, Why not not leave it the same as now. This will mean that we pay twice for one licencing period of two years. Currently you only renew and pay fees when you do the renewal. Any ideas what these fees will be.(will it not be the same as tollgates, they soften you with the ideas of concessions etc, and when the place is build they systematically increase the tollfees and then there is sh##t you can do about it.) :oops: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Postby 150 » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:26 pm

FF,

Now we come very close what I see as a hot oven plate where fingers get burned very easy.

I can’t get out from you in simple terms, "Yes it is possible for a PP or RP under the new part 62 to get remunerated"
Follow it up what I wrote, you type like a lawyer you try to avoid questions like a lawyer, maybe you are one, but this is not my point, I don’t blame you.

You wrote in the begin, legislation or regulations are against any part 96 com opps, I bailed out, I don’t want to fight.

Not true, again it is possible to get a part 96 ASL, but how you wrote it, it sounds like it is not possible at all. Not true again,
South Africa is the only country in the world, where it is possible to fly a NTCA under part 96, for gain. I see from the new part 96, that people are not happy with it, they want more that any cowboy, can fly commercially.

In order to fly under the present part 96, you need to be a CPL, and that is what the hole of the new part62 is about.
It is well hidden in the proposal, and someone can hardly see it sticking out, except again lawyers.

Now, maybe the hole of the ML community will fall over me right now, but in my opinion, no comm. Pilot………no comm. flying.

Reasons and questions with my humble opinion with some couple of 100's PPL hours, so I would be a beneficiary as well, but common sence prevails as:

1.) Comm. pilot is a profession
2.) Comm. pilot is proper trained
3.) Why should someone go through the troubles of comm. pilot exams, being outbreaked by a PPL or RPL(even with the ad on for a course and exam) :?:
4.) Why don’t you apply for an ASL with the Dept. of Transport to start Part 96 flipping opps :?:
5.) Is 4.) to difficult to achieve :?:
6.) If it is difficult to achieve, why is that so :?:
7.) Is that a safety issue, right now :?:
8.) If 7) is yes, than there would be an even more serious safety issue in the future :!:
9.) With the deregulation of the present regs, and introduction of part62 ML opps will mushroom and fatalities rise.
10.) Do you personally have with the present part62 introduction a gain in your operation
11.) The Aero club is like a union, but now they are getting involved in the control of com operations
12.) this 11.) is designate for abuse, the buddy of the buddy in the Aero club system will help e.g. you to get your licence easier.

It is simple for me; if you or others want to fly COM on a NTCA, got through the correct channels, get your CPL and fly. What’s the problem, is it to difficult, than get a Com Pilot, pay him to fly for you, if you go through all the troubles to get the appropriate licences, the law (regs) allow it presently, but under certain conditions, even in NTCA’s.

Part 62, does not give the user with makes his ML Pilot licence an advantage, it is rather a disadvantage, it is purely addressed, to get com operations remunerated. This is the whole reason of part 62, and not what you claim, it is better for the guy making his licence.
Next point, the RPL and the PPL.
With the introduction of the COM aspect of remuneration of part 96, me as a stupid PPL have to go through the same testing as the RPL. In my opinion a PPL is superior to a RPL, I know you wont agree, but come to WB, and listen to the radio and you will hear what is going on.
Go to a ML field look at the studentsML and ML pilots flying, and compare it again with e.g. WB.
Done that, you will know what I am writing about here, a PPL is superior to a MLL(RPL).
Even if I cant get you to agree, you have to agree if it come to the CPL pilot.

This is not an insult on you FF (seen you already getting upset previously), it is facts, it is as well not personal, you are unfortunate only the poor guy receiving the massage. But you know what is going on, because you don’t like to mention “for pay or remuneration”, which would be a straight simple and forward answer.
ANE wrote:

FF, another thing is the yearly renewal. Why do we have to renew the licence yearly, Why not not leave it the same as now. This will mean that we pay twice for one licencing period of two years. Currently you only renew and pay fees when you do the renewal. Any ideas what these fees will be.(will it not be the same as tollgates, they soften you with the ideas of concessions etc, and when the place is build they systematically increase the tollfees and then there is sh##t you can do about it.)
ANE, think about what I have written above :x We have here a club of people, looking for their own interest only, not for your interests.

Does the above make now sence :?:
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Postby Fairy Flycatcher » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:46 pm

150, you are either not reading my posts properly, or you are being bloody deliberate, and I can't see your point.

I am not a lawyer. I have spent hours getting to know the law, and I truly have flying at heart. I have no idea what your agenda is with all this.

Please look at the full version of the law, look at the sylabus and then please reconsider your comments, which are starting to border on stupid. It is mis-information like this which causes politics in our sport, and if you would only take the time, you WILL understand what both I have written, and what is written in the FULL version of the law and the FULL version of the Technical Standards.

Now, I have no idea how to address your questions. If anyone else on this forum can help, please do. I feel I have been pretty clear on my responses, and I have tried to be helpful. If I have not succeeded in being clear enough, or helpful enough, please ask someone who is.

To try and attack me for trying to share and help with understanding information is so shortsighted it is not funny.

Have a look at the AIC I quoted, and see what Air Services Licence I was refering to when I did. If you do not file your NOTAMs and AIC's, don't make it my problem.
Annie
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ZU-ANE

Postby ZU-ANE » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:46 pm

At present I can not see the advantages of part 96. It looks like only current flight schools will benefit from this new arrangement. A pilot doing illegal flipping will just continue as is. You get good pilots with normal jobs that would like to earn exstra after hours or on weekends(the legal way). The new system will still not allow a correctly qualified pilot with a appropriatly certified aircraft to opperate as a one man band.
ZU-ANE

Postby ZU-ANE » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:48 pm

Hi FF, is it possible to respond to my previous question on the renewal???
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Postby Fairy Flycatcher » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:59 pm

ZU-ANE wrote:FF, another thing is the yearly renewal. Why do we have to renew the licence yearly, Why not not leave it the same as now. This will mean that we pay twice for one licencing period of two years. Currently you only renew and pay fees when you do the renewal. Any ideas what these fees will be.(will it not be the same as tollgates, they soften you with the ideas of concessions etc, and when the place is build they systematically increase the tollfees and then there is sh##t you can do about it.) :oops: :cry: :cry: :cry:
I have no idea why it has been written in as a yearly renewal. It would make sense to renew every 2 years, when you are due for a skills test (flight test and review of regulations, NOTAMs AIC's and AIPsubs). At the moment they allow us to renew the licence every 2 years, although you pay for both years seperately up front. I am sure that administrative procedures will allow for the same in future.

The fees at the moment come to R 240 per year, and no VAT charged. So when you renew your licence you pay R 480, which lasts for 2 years. These fees form part of the published law, and an ARO may charge the same amount, or a lesser amount, but not more.

Every time fees change, the proposed changes have to be published in the Government Gazette, where people - anyone in SA- have at least 30 days to comment. This allows the industry to ensure that they are charged (and governed) the way they want to be. In the past, people in the industry have not been informed enough about these procedures, to be able to comment and have a valid input.

I would like this to change in future.
Annie
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ZU-ANE

Postby ZU-ANE » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:04 pm

Thanx, now for my previous question on part 96, were my assumptions correct?
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Postby Fairy Flycatcher » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:06 pm

ZU-ANE wrote:Thanx, now for my previous question on part 96, were my assumptions correct?

Have a look just before 150's long post. I think it is all there
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Postby skybound® » Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:31 pm

If I can maybe hazard a guess as to what 150 is trying to get across is:

Assume that all the other licences such as Air Service are all in place.
RPL with Part 96 autho can earn money.
PPL needs full Com to do same - CPL.

RPL has to do very little compared to CPL to get to earning status. Is this equitable?

My own thoughts is if a PPL wants to fly a 2 seat Jabiru for gain he must have a CPL. If RPL wants to fly the equivalent 2 seat Jabiru it is a much easier process. Why should this be?

I haven't managed to comprehensively read all the docs yet, but in the proposed Part 62 of about a year ago, there was an indication that in order to get Part 96 autho, the RPL would have to do almost the equivalent theory course as a VFR Com PPL. In this new proposal this seems to have fallen by the wayside and there is only a mention of practical skills.

Also they have changed to having a GrA instructor sign out Part 96 autho as opposed to a Flight Examiner in the docs of last year, who I would have thought would be the equivalent of a Designated PPL examiner.

Am I correct, or have I misread?
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Postby Fairy Flycatcher » Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:11 pm

skybound ® wrote: I haven't managed to comprehensively read all the docs yet, but in the proposed Part 62 of about a year ago, there was an indication that in order to get Part 96 autho, the RPL would have to do almost the equivalent theory course as a VFR Com PPL. In this new proposal this seems to have fallen by the wayside and there is only a mention of practical skills.
Guys, please understand that I did not write the law. I was not even involved in the law. I have now handed the law to you on a plate, by summarizing it and explaining details the best I could.

I am not an elected MISASA committee member, just trying to help, but I am not here to think for you.

There is also a lot of relevant details under the topic " Please have a look - Part 62 Technical Standards"

Go and read the technical standards, see what the requirements are for a Part 96 Authorization (Skills test refer to both practical and theoretical skills), and then comment. I am starting to get a bit anoyed, so I think will not answer questions on this for a while.

Maybe someone else on the forum can take over?
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Postby lamercyfly » Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:27 pm

Jislaaik 150. You say FF speaks like a lawyer!?

Boet! I have been trying for half an hour now to understand what it actually is that you are asking. Bliksem, you talk worse than a politician.

Man, if you are battling with the Engels, then say it in Afrikaans.

Did you know that FF is a Boeremeisie?

So, I really would like to know what it is that is bothering you so.

As long as it is not in one of the 11 other official languages, please spell it out again.

You are also wellcome to call me to have a chat about these things.

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ZU-ANE

Postby ZU-ANE » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:47 pm

Hi lamercyfly, i must agree, have read 150 post over and over and still can't get his point (if there is any). I think he is kicking the messanger.
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:05 pm

Think 150 would like to do it in Sherman.... Think some of what he asking lost in (direct) translation. Also he just been through whole NTSC part 96 (???) commercial ops license (don't know what correct terminology is :oops: :oops: ) and by sounds of it was very frustrating.....

PS
Not yet had a chance to look through all of it, but FF thanks in advance for your persistance and englikaans legaleeeesssseeeee translation :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Much appreciated by pleb like me.... :wink:
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:12 pm

FF Thanks. Makes for some interesting reading.

Is copy of SA-CATS-FCL 62 available or is it still being drafted/finalised?

Cheers
:wink:

PS
Still not clear on 1 thing?

Do I need RPL to be grade C instrcutor on microlight aeries if I have PPL in terms of part 61? (excluding hr requirements, tests etc)

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