33 FOOT ROTOR

[jacester]

I flew the Sycamore with the 33 foot Australian alluminium rotor. The plane was an absolute pleasure to fly, very stable in the air. Set the trim at the speed you want and enjoy the flight. On Friday I flew another Sycamore with the RAF rotor. I was schocked by the instability of the plane and this was in smooth weather. You had to fly the plane all the time. Then it was nose up, then nose down, sideways etc. You litterally could not relax for one second and had to hold on tho the stick all the time, and no it was not because I over corrected. I appreciate the fact that it was the first time I flew the plane, but I had difficulty in keeping the plane straight and level with 200 hours flying time on my log book. Even though it was a Sycamore it felt like a totally different airoplane, really difficult to fly and not something I would like to venture away from the airfield on a cross country flight.
My advise to all Sycamore owners that have not done the conversion is to seriously consider the 33 foot rotor system. The difference is really unbelievable and will be 100% worth the investment! I started my training in a Magni and between the Magni and my Sycamore with the 33 foot rotor there was absolutely no difference in feel regarding the stability of the two planes.

[MICHIEL]

Eissshhhh ...looking for biiiiggg problems......moderators will be on you and 'it can bring you in waters you would not like to be in'...nogal in Upington.

[gyrofan]

Ho boy.....This is a nice run-in to the elections....get everybody really seriously "de moer in"....Why do I feel that more than 1/2 the posts on gyros are about accidents, somebody flying like a hooligan or then some or other emotional comparison of machines....
How I long for the old trike days...if it could fly you were welcome, wow, if it had an engine that actually produced some wind you were more than welcome. Most of the chats were with people who honestly tried to help you and if they compared one to the other, I never got the impression that it was negative...I don'y know how they did it, but it just always felt so good.

Back to the bonfight. What is the latest story with CAA and the Aluminium rotors. Last word was still that CAA did not issue any approval for the mod and the change to Al rotors is thus ILLEGAL.

Right, now I can sit back and start eating popcorn....

[Vertical Tango]

Jacaster, when you did your test flight with these big rotors, did this affect the cruising speed ? I am not worried about few miles, but to your feeling, and for knowledge, what did you find ?

[weedy]

Eissshhhh ...looking for biiiiggg problems......moderators will be on you and 'it can bring you in waters you would not like to be in'...nogal in Upington.

You are the most negative poster I have ever read on this forum.

[Low Level]

Michiel

Stop being an %$@#* on this forum. Change your questions attitude and the guys will take you seriously - or bugger off. You're changing Gyro talk in a mini Avcom. There is no reference to RAF - it is the type of rotor on the older Sycamores being discussed.

Hi Jacques.

Still inexperieced - busy with training - I flew with a friend instuctor in Pietersburg. He has the Sycamore with old composite rotor and Subaru engine - E81, where I have the longer Al rotor on mine. To be honest I couldn't tell the difference in characteristics. The stronger Subaru also helped with the lack of lift from the shorter rotor, so all in all, the two Sycamores flew pretty much the same.

Maybe some setup problems in the one you flew.

For interest sake, who's was it. You're interested in buying again?

[jacester]

Jacaster, when you did your test flight with these big rotors, did this affect the cruising speed ? I am not worried about few miles, but to your feeling, and for knowledge, what did you find ?

No Tango. The only thing I could compare with is from talking to other pilots with different makes and models. On my plane the optimal cruising was 75 mph at between 4700 and 4800 rpm burning 17 l per hour. 100 mph was my own personal vne even though the book said 110. You must also remember I am a big guy 115 kg and I always felt comfortable with at least 40l in the tank. I am sure these performance figures are very similar to other gyros with the 914 turbo. Rate of climb is all relative as a result of density altitude. In the middle of summer taking of from Springs 5300 feet and temperature 34 degr I managed about 300 to 400 fpm. At my field 4300 feet and early morning temperature 20 degrees between 800 and 1000fpm at 60 mph.
Hope this give some clarity

[Vertical Tango]

Very much on par to my previous Magni. So are saying that the long rotors have not slowed down the machine ? If that is the case, it is quite interesting to know that longer rotors might give more drag, but affect somehow the overall performance with better lift. Things seem to balance. Then the better lift is resolved without a loss of performance.

[jacester]

Michiel

Stop being an asshole on this forum. Change your questions attitude and the guys will take you seriously - or bugger off. You're changing Gyro talk in a mini Avcom. There is no reference to RAF - it is the type of rotor on the older Sycamores being discussed.

Hi Jacques.

Still inexperieced - busy with training - I flew with a friend instuctor in Pietersburg. He has the Sycamore with old composite rotor and Subaru engine - E81, where I have the longer Al rotor on mine. To be honest I couldn't tell the difference in characteristics. The stronger Subaru also helped with the lack of lift from the shorter rotor, so all in all, the two Sycamores flew pretty much the same.

Maybe some setup problems in the one you flew.

For interest sake, who's was it. You're interested in buying again?

Definitely I will be back in the market soon. I have real withdrawel symptoms that is not good for my health so this is not a luxury but purely due to health problems I experience when I am not flying . I posted the experience just to highlight the impact of a rotor. The point I tried to make is that the rotor can have a massive effect on the fun you get from your aircraft. I am no expert on the performance of the various rotors, the pitch angle etc. I just want to fly and enjoy it. The 33 foot rotor has been tested to be the best compromise on the Sycamore, engineering out most of the problems associated with the shorter rotor on the Sycamore. All you have to ask yourself on the plane you are flying. If it is smooth air and you can not set the trim at a certain speed and fly pretty much hands off with very minor imput, then it is not right. Even in severe updrafts, I am talking 1500 fpm the only input was to reduce power and change the attitude of the plane more nose down to maintain altitude. Still no fighting with the stick and very minor inputs.If the planes you are flying does have those characteristics then do not bother to much, if not then seriously consider the bigger rotor.

[jacester]

Very much on par to my previous Magni. So are saying that the long rotors have not slowed down the machine ? If that is the case, it is quite interesting to know that longer rotors might give more drag, but affect somehow the overall performance with better lift. Things seem to balance. Then the better lift is resolved without a loss of performance.

Seems that way. Also interesting that they have decided to fit a bigger rotor on the Xenon. I am sure if you fly the Xenon with the bigger rotor the flying experience will be better, not that the current would neccesarily be bad. The fact is after all the testing and development work the Xenon will be better and for a small incremental cost on an already big investment!, worth every cent.
I am also not sure what the rotor speed is on the magni. On my plane it was 320 rpm. Not sure if this will also effect drag,(higher rpm vs lower rpm) because the fact of the matter is the two sizes of rotor must produce the same lift to maintain flight.

[MICHIEL]

LowLevel,I can see you are 'still inexperienced', so please get some fellow aviators to explain to you what a 'RAF rotor' is that Jacester refered to and you might understand what the reference was to RAF

[MICHIEL]

Anybody with questions or wanting more info on rotors should contact Johan at Wagtail.He runs the only commercial gyro operation in the country and he has a wealth of information on gyros and especially rotors.He also has the only facility in the country that i know of that can electronically balance rotor blades.

[FO Gyro]

Guys, please let's keep this forum positive, and no more personal attacks, otherwise postings will be deleted.

Glen Meyer, from Kittyhawk, but the way, also does electronic balancing when he sets up the rotors for the MT-03. It can be quite a time consuming process to sort it out, but well worth it.

[FO Gyro]

Jacester, I had a Sycamore about 8 yrs ago, and it was first gyro off the assembly line, after the prototype. I wasn't happy with the rotor on it (I might be wrong, but I seem to remember trying out the RAF rotor on it). It seemed to be somewhat unstable in pitch, particularly in turbulence. To me it was a pity, since an enclosed gyro, with the option of removeable doors looked like the answer.

It's good gen that the Australian rotor transforms the machine with better handling qualities.

I think we must not be too scared to air our opinions, that's what forums are there for. As long as our intention is to be constructive, and to avoid the emotional comparison of gyro's. Agents too must realise that we have freedom of speach, and we can all learn from weaknesses in design.

[Gyronaut]

I won't get drawn into any mud-slinging or brand-bashing but simply have this to say:-

I have had a Sycamore with the Australian 33' Aluminium rotor for over 3 years and I am very very happy with its performance.
Having flown Sycamores and Magnis with 28' composite rotors in the past I can vouch for the improved performance of the aluminium rotor.
Down side is that it has a hub-bar which I personally consider inferior to the 'cheek plate' configuration of the composite rotors in that a hub bar has a finite cycle life which the cheek-plate assembly won't have. Having said that, I think the cycle life of the hub bar far exceeds my own natural life expectancy in any event so who cares.

The RAF rotor has very clever inertia teeter-stops that makes ground handling a pleasure and I think all rotors should be designed like that.
I wish someone could design and manufacture a compatible set for my rotor!

Enough said. If its capable of autorotation and its safe, I support it!

Fly safe.

Len

Len