RAF gyrocopter accidents

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t-bird
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby t-bird » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:37 am

I think that we should give Eben a chance by comparing South African Gyro Statistics from about 2000/2002 to current. That is when they have started and also when the newer models came to the SA market.

If you look at fatalities the ELA and RAF are the safest.Eben can tell us how many Rafs are flying

How can this be possible ??? Flying an unstable gyro and have less fatalities and accidents than the newer stable gyro’s

Is it the pilots , I don’t think so most of the Raf pilots started flying Rafs. Eben can correct me on this.

The only variable that is left is training .

From this perspective I have to say WELL DONE RAFSA.

The rest of the Gyro community could learn from this.
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby Learjet » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:21 am

Unless one can accurately determine comparative flying hours and the relative numbers of the different makes of gyro, it is impossible to make any sort of safety claim based upon accident numbers. All things being equal, the more popular a particular model of gyro, the more accidents one would expect to see. I compiled a comparative analysis based upon the CAA accident reports over the past 10 years, and the results didn't yield much in the way of insight other than the majority of accidents could be attributed to handling errors (both on the ground and in the air) and weather. Virtually none were attributable to in-flight structural or compononent failures. Like most aircraft the safety critical area in gyros seems to be located in the cockpit just behind the stick... :roll:
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby t-bird » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:59 am

Leajet

You can’t determine the number of flying hours.
Surely number of gyro’s is available?

Use a level playing ground number of gyro’s per category for the last 8-10 years and the number of fatalities.

Here is my guest list

Top on fatalities
1) Sycamore
2) Mt-03
3) Magni
4) Raf
5) ELA

Now the instability of the RAF is a fact .

Why so little fatalities ??

Is it because the RAF pilots knows the limitations of the Gyro and it is drilled into their training
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby Gyronaut » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:23 am

I am not getting into the debate about horisontal stabilisers (or not) and which gyro is safer than the other BUT, I do have this to say....

ZU-EXP, a RAF2000 has taken up the space next to mine in the hangar and I have had a chance to have a good look at it. The finish, quality of engineering and overall appearance of this machine is STUNNING! It is simply beautiful. Lets face it, the side-by-side configuration is first prize and with the quality obvious I think the Mockes have a winner! Lets rather support the local industry and stop speculating.

Of course, with my Sycamore, I have been subject to LOADS of bullshit so I empathise with RAF owners. I yet have to meet one that isn't totally happy with his machine, as I am with my Sycamore, in spite of all the nonsense spoken by the know-it-all-tyre-kickers.

Suggestion to the Mockes: Design a sexy looking horizontal stabiliser, test it, get it certified and offer it as an optional extra. Problem and bullshit gone!

Voila!

Len
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby weedy » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:42 am

JetRanger wrote:-------
Suggestion to the Mockes: Design a sexy looking horizontal stabiliser, test it, get it certified and offer it as an optional extra. Problem and bullshit gone!

Voila!

Len
Something like this?
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby Gyronaut » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:51 am

Yes Weedy, nicely swept back and sleek... sommer gooi a little swept-back verticle tip-winglet on the outer points too!
(^^)

Dan kan al die kakpraters hulle bekke hou!
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby saraf » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:54 am

Hi Len

Thanks very much for the nice imput you are making towards gyro's. Revering to the HS which you suggested, and you are so right to get rid of the B*&^%$.

RAF Canada has a store full of tested Horizontals Stabilators of which non could meet the safety standards of making the RAF safer , as a matter of fact it only had a negative affect on the type of design of the RAF. All must remember that the RAF is a break away aircraft from the original rigid mast design. This is why we have a patented mast and Rotor Stabilator. We have had students mount Horizontal stabilators on their RAF's but asked us afterwords to remove thee ....... from there RAF's so that they have the Stock RAF and to be able to fly it the way they have been trained to fly it.

We will continue with research and development on our Aircraft as we have been doing all along. I can assure you that we are making use of top International Aeronautical Engineers for all these developments.

Again, Len it was nice meeting you the other day at morningstar and I hope to meet you very soon again. Give my regards to Mike the owner of the RAF standing next to you Sycamore.

Kind regards

SARAF
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby t-bird » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:18 am

How many RAF’s in SA Eben ?

Jetranger how many other Gyros and Fatalities over the last 8 – 10 years ?

Old no 7 How many Mt-03 and how many fatalities ?

What kill Pilots unstable Gyro’s or poor training ??
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby saraf » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:22 am

Hi T

Plus Minus 55 RAF 's in SA.

Not one Fatality since we have been involved. I know of 1 in 1994 of 1995.

Regards
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby t-bird » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:56 am

Well done Eben this is not far from my guest list (see prev post)

And the rest of the Gyro manne ?? Old no 7??? Jet ranger ???
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby Gyronaut » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:30 pm

t-bird wrote: Jetranger how many other Gyros and Fatalities over the last 8 – 10 years ?
I dunno, I upgraded from Helicopters to Gyro's in 2006 so have zero personal knowledge about Gyro's before then.

The only Sycamore fatality that I am aware of was Sean Klopper (RIP) and that was DEFINATELY not his, or the Sycamore's, fault. This is a known fact. In-tact rotor seperation during flight as a result of faulty/incorrect fitment by an AP can hardly be blamed on the gyro-type or the pilot who could not possibly determine this fact from a pre-flight inspection.
We will await the outcome of the CAA investigation but the evidence is clear. As a result of what I have been told by witnesses and others, there is an un-named gyro type that I will never set foot in. Klaar.
t-bird wrote: And the rest of the Gyro manne ?? Old no 7??? Jet ranger ???
(**) ek weetie!?

I can tell you that 52 Sycamores were built and that the factory has now closed down. While spares are available it means mine will either become a collectors item in time or who knows, until then I am enjoying it immensely although I seem to spend more time in the schools' and other people's Magni's than in my own machine lately.

Learjets summary is about the most comprehensive and that only covers 2008.
Learjet wrote: 21/04/08 8481 (ZS-ETA) Accident Namibia O/B Gyrocopter (Ela-07) Private On landing, aircraft veered to avoid sheep
24/04/08 8483 (ZU-DHK) Fatal Accident Bela-Bela Limpopo Gyro Magni – 16 Private Crash landed in a game reserve
27/04/08 8487 (ZU-EBL) Accident Kirkwood E/C Gyrocopter (Ela-08) Private Low level flying, lost air speed while trying climb, collided with object on the ground and broke nose wheel.
12/07/08 8518 (ZU-DSM) Accident Rhinopark GP Ela Avia Gyro Plane Private Crashed landed just after take-off
28/07/08 8530 (ZU-WLL) Accident Keetmanshoop O/B Gyro MT 03 Private A/C blown by wind after landing
09/08/08 8531 (ZU-DLL) Accident Middleburg Aero FS Gyrocopter (Ela-07) Private A/C blown by strong wind on take-off
11/09/08 8550 (ZU-EHD) Fatal Accident Harrismith KZN Auto Gyro MT-03 Private A/C crashed during inclement weather condition
25/09/08 8555 (ZU-ERH) Accident Aliwal North EC Gryrocopter ELA – 07 Private Pilot experienced wind shear, damaged airframe
25/09/08 8557 (ZU-EZU) Accident Upington Aero NC RAF 2000 GTX SE Training A/C landed hard and rolled over
30/11/08 8588 (ZU-ETR) Fatal Accident Vryheid KZN Gyrocopter MT03 Private Aircraft struck power lines (1 fatality)
21/12/08 8600 (ZU-ONS) Accident Groot Morico Farm LIMP MT-03 Gyrocopter Private Loss of control
29/12/08 8602 (ZU-RCW) Accident Springs GP Y021 (MTOSport) Gyro Training Practicing forced landings, hit ground
In my humble opinion its all down to training. The machines are inherently safe and given the right training and maintenance I insist that Gyro's are the safest form of aviation available today.

I was rather shocked to be told recently that there are 48 gyro instructors in the country!!?? I find this VERY difficult to believe and doubt that some of them have the necessary experience, let alone training, to be instructors... but that is my opinion only and not based on fact.

I also believe that 'throwing in the training' with a new machine should be forbidden and independent, responsible instructors should be held accountable for handling errors if the student hasn't been adequately trained. How many gyro pilots can REALLY explain and REALLY understand "Gyroscopic precession"? ... yes, go google it. How many times havent you heard... "As he landed a gust of wind blew him over instantly"? Bu$%^*&t! A hard nose-wheel landing will roll the rotor-disc violently to the SIDE resulting in it scribbling itself down the runway. bla bla bla... enough said.

Fly safe boys and stop comparing your toys! :lol: :lol:

Len
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby t-bird » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:10 pm

Hi Eben/Jet Rannger/Old no7 ???/

Here is another one

In how many accidents have the Gyro started to burn afterwards ?? This is non fatal accidents
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby saraf » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:21 pm

RAF 2000 - none
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby Learjet » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:32 pm

Ok here it is... my spreadsheet summary collated (mostly) from available CAA Accident reports over the last 10 years or so. As I said earlier there really isn't much knowledge to be gained on a type by type comparison unless you can compare relative numbers and flying hours etc. Also, as JetRanger says - read between the lines and you may not be wrong in coming to the conclusion that "sudden wind gusts" and "down-draughts after take-off" are euphemisms for poor pilot handling and behind-the-power-curve incidents...

The bottom line is a that a disproportional number of accidents take place on the ground or as a result of "poor handling" - rotor strikes, taxiing too fast, sharp turn roll-overs etc. :cry: Virtually none are attributable to in-air structural failures. vhpy That means safety is far more about the way we fly our gyros - not which gyros we fly or how they fly. :roll:
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Re: RAF gyrocopter accidents

Postby t-bird » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:57 pm

There is a certain Gyro that engine cuts out with 20 liters in the tank if put into a steep decent and burns when in an accident. “Old no 7 “ This is where you come in.

Is this then pilot error ???

Can someone get us the number of Gyro’s per type flying at the moment??

I try to be as neutral as possible.

And I don’t fly a Raf or is trying to buy one.

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