Burning Gyros

[Hub-Bar]

I am once again distressed to read about a gyro burning following a serious incident. This is a reality we have to face but I have a serious engineering problem with the construction of some of the gyro's fuel tanks. Some time ago I was admiring a friend's Ela until I checked the whereabouts of the fuel tank. I was shocked to be able to deform the fuel tank wall with a very slight pressure from my finger. This tank was fibreglass (maybe CF?) and an integral part of the hull. Any serious deformation of the hull must cause this tank wall to rupture with the then dire consequences. I am not sure what the Magni and MT-03's tanks are like, but I suspect that it could be similar to the Ela I have seen (integral construction anyway). I personaly fly a RAF2000 and it has a separate thick walled (heavy) 'plastic' tank like most modern motor vehicles. I know of some serious incidents in RAFs, but none that have burned. Please guys, this is not a debate about gyro types; they all have their individual good points and their bad ones - this is a very real engineering concern that I have and I feel strongly that in the interest of survivability the manufacturers should go back to the drawing board and address this issue. Check the stats and I am sure you guys will share my views. Happy flying.

[weedy]

I share your concern, to many gyros accidents are ending up in flames, even a simple roll over on the runway, and not just in SA its all over. I wish rubber bladder tanks were more available.

[Learjet]

The proximity of the fuel tank to the cockpit in gyros is probably a notable concern to gyro and helicopter pilots alike, and indeed similar questions and comments have been made about helicopters.
These questions usually arise (like now) after a particularly tragic incident - and I thought I'd compile a spreadsheet on gyro accident data over the last 10 years (1997 to date) from the available CAA records http://www.caa.co.za/ Some of the more recent incident reports (i.e last year or two) have not been published by the CAA yet, but I endeavoured to include those that I was aware of. The results were not quite what I expected.

According to (mostly) the CAA stats, in the last (nearly) 11 years there have been approx 39 reported incidents & accidents involving SA registered gyros, only 6 accidents were accompanied by fire.
Of these:

3 were serious accidents which resulted in fatalities and where a post-accident fire (not necessarily the cause of death) occurred:
Sycamore (8 Nov 2006) Crashed after suspected rotor-head failure after take-off.
Magni M16 (24 Apr 2008) Crashed after take off. Reason yet unkown.
MT-03 (11 Sept 2008) Crashed in poor weather. Reason yet unknown.
(CAA Reports yet to be published)

1 involved a post-accident fire with injuries:
MT-03 (27/12/2007) Roll-over during landing.

2 involved a post-accident fire with no major injuries:
Sycamore (3/9/2000) Excessive speed taxiing turn resulting in roll-over & fire.
Magni M16 (29/8/2004) Forced landing resulting in nose-over and fire.

It would appear that the incidence fire is approx 15% - less than I'd anticipated given that the majority of the CAA accident reports indicated "substantial damage" to the aircraft involved. I have no idea how this compares to other GA accident stats (relating to fires etc) but what was very surprising was the number of what I would broadly term "ground handling" incidents. These accounted for more than 20% of all gyro accidents over the past 10 years! i.e Typically taxiing (too fast / tight turn) incidents resulting in roll-overs, and (reading betwen the lines) more than likely 'blade flap" occurrences during take-off roll resulting in rotor /ground strikes. Clearly most of these are entirely avoidable through better training / awareness regarding taxiing procedure and rotor-management.

Here is the spreadsheet summary which I compiled. I can't vouch for its accuracy and some of the comments are my brief summation (and speculation) from the CAA accident reports. I'm sure someone like Leprechaun can add a lot more insight & info to this.

[vernon11]

AFTER READING THE SUMMERY, MY DREAM HAS CHANGED.

[Learjet]

Vernon11 - If 3 fatal accidents in more than 10 years and many thousands of hours flying puts you off gyros then so be it. Just remember that it's all relative and must be seen in the context of the number of gyros being flown these days! At least you have the priviledge of being able to review the stats yourself and make an informed decision. Few other sports or activities (all of which have their associated risks) offer you that luxury, although someone did tell me once, that statistically speaking, more people die playing bowls than any other sport...

[Slabfish]

I was talking to a friend about the danger of a fire during an a/c accident and the possibility to try and prevent it. He mentioned reticulated foam for fuel cells as a prevention . I haven't researched this ,but there might be some merit in it

[t-bird]

Hi Hub-bar

Are you an aeronautical engineer by just touching a fuel tank and know that it is dangerous ?

I could not find one ELA fire related incident worldwide.
Non in South Africa as well.

This is your second post and your are bashing other brands

If you have a positive contribution I am all ears, but please don’t bash the other brands especially when you fly a RAF.

Regards

Callie

[Hub-Bar]

Learjet - Thanks for the work re the stats. Very informative all round. No matter what type of microlight, gyro, heli or fixed wing you fly, we all have to acknowledge and accept the risk of post-accident fire following a serious incident/accident - and we do. It has always been like that and will always be. However, this does not change my observations and opinion re the hull-integral fibreglass (CF?) fuel tank concept. We are nett consumers of products and if we find an issue that raises concern, we must flag it to our fellow pilots and suppliers for discussion and perusal. Guys, I've been walking with this thing in my head for a while now and I had to get it off my chest - for whatever it may be worth.

[Learjet]

I've always believed that "good" is the enemy of "great!" I don't know the first thing about fuel tank construction materials and I can only imagine that aircraft manufacturers would (I hope) put a great deal of consideration into this when designing an AC. Rigid versus flexible - I just don't know. I guess like most AC components it's a case of weight plus quality divided by cost!
I've always believed that one of the sensible things we can do is to give greater consideration to what clothing we wear when we fly. Airforce pilots do. Rally drivers do. Racing drivers do. Motorcyclists do. But we pilots don't. Link to a post I made about the benefits of fire resistant clothing here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5472&p=52758#p52758

[johnht]

Thanks, Learjet!
The article you provided a link to is most thought provoking. Indeed your point about motor cyclists dressing appropriately for protection in case of an accident is so true. Few things frighten me more than the thought of an after crash fire!
John

[vernon11]

Vernon11 - If 3 fatal accidents in more than 10 years and many thousands of hours flying puts you off gyros then so be it. Just remember that it's all relative and must be seen in the context of the number of gyros being flown these days! At least you have the priviledge of being able to review the stats yourself and make an informed decision. Few other sports or activities (all of which have their associated risks) offer you that luxury, although someone did tell me once, that statistically speaking, more people die playing bowls than any other sport...

Hi Learjet.
I was just throwing in a bit of humar. It has been my dream to own and fly a gyro since way back 1972. It will always be my dream, but unfortunatly I will never be in that position to fullfill the dream
cheers Vernon.

[volki]

did you ever hear about "DETO-STOP® Explosion Prevention System". this could be one way to make more saftey against burning. i know they want to expand, perhaps they look for help in s.a. ? www.texoga.com contact mr fegert or mr fetzer

greetings
volki

[volki]

one intresting vid about detostop in you tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HdkC1sjyOo
volki

[Learjet]

Looks like a great concept but I'm struggling to see how it would make any difference in the event of a fuel tank being ruptured in an accident? Hasn't this been the holy grail of aircraft safety engineers for decades... so why aren't the Boeings and Airbusses of the world using the stuff?

Umm and just how is the fuel gauge sender unit going to work with the tank stuffed full of mesh balls?

[volki]

hi learjet,
yes it looks like ! and i think it is !! the story of my contact to detostop is , that i searched for something against fireexplosion/prevension. a friend of mine works in the army and he gave me the contact to texoga, as well the german ul and gyrosceene woke up for this.
surely it is not the holy grail of ..., but it submit more safety in case of explo-danger. i do have a presentation of detostop (power point) because its more than 9 MB big , can´nt place it ! here a download link to download that file : http://rapidshare.com/files/213358499/D ... z.ppt.html

"so why aren't the Boeings and Airbusses of the world using the stuff? " , because it works like everything ==> money ! its not because of the cost for , detostop; they have to add about 300- 500kg for the detostop and that means 20-40 seats lost !! and if no official institution make it for duty ?? they use nitrogen and,and,.... you understand !? the military use it !?
because of the fuel gauge sender ==> most of this senders were placed in a tube . otherwise the fuel gauge sender have to be protected by a gitter cell .(easy to make alu or gfk or ...). with low money (50l ca. 350-400€), once filled , it works with a 5 years-guaranty and we win more safe ! i think you will agree.
many good and helpful things disappears, and that´s why i want to show this Explosion Prevention System to everybody , if possible => worldwide ! (perhaps texoga will employ me )
but if only one person will survive because of this product, i know it has been remunerated ! cause it could be everybody of us !!
if any question pls contact i have to contact texoga to prepare my contracts
greetings
volki