Microlighters

From the Xenon post

Eagle1 said “Sycamore flew my plane on Friday and was straight and level at 4700 rpm”

Your revs are not an indication of how hard your engine work.
Your manifold pressure is a good indication of how hard your engine work.

You can fly a Sycamore at 100 mph but your manifold pressure will be way over 29 inches.
So what is the relevance ???? Fuel consumption, it is great flying around the patch with a manifold pressure over 30 inches, but your fuel consumption will be in the region of 25-30 liters an hour.

When flying longer trips you will realise the logistics to get fuel.

Eagle1“Quite frankly I am not that obsessed with speed”

I am also not obsessed with speed. But you will use between 7 and 12 liters an hour more than the other gyros.

Per Sagpa website the Sycamore has a 60 liter tank compared to the 70-72 liters of the Ela and Magni.

If you fly slower use more fuel and have a smaller tank your range will be significant shorter than the other gyros.

Guys, yes, let's talk facts, but at the same time, trying to stay away from the "mine is bigger than yours attitude". I must say, I am more obsessed with endurance, than speed, as it means I can go places. I agree totally, the journey there is what makes it. If one's gyro is slightly slower, then leave earlier!

If a Syamore happens to fly at the same speed, but burns more fuel per hour, let's admit it, but then also remember, one can probably get a good 2nd hand Sycamore for half of what a new gyro would cost. How long would the saving of around R250 000 take to pay for the extra fuel consumed. Quite a lot of flying I would say! A rough esitmate would be around 5 000hours!

My first gyro was the VPM with the Arrow motor. I only had a 47l tank, and I was burning around 25-30 l hour. I could only fly for 1:30. No wonder I didn't ever go anywhere too far, the logistics of refueling wherever I went put me off flying away from the cabbaqe patch.

My previous VPM M16 had a 914, but again with the 47l tank, although fuel consumption was better, still limited me somewhat.

In my MT-03, if 1 up, I can fly at 15l/hr at around 80mph (a very slow leisurely pace) indicated at 4 600 RPM, about 24-25" maybe, and I'll have an endurance of around 4:40 endurance with no reserve (73l tank). The ELA is probably the same, and the Magni, also not far off from that as well. There is also lots of storage for another 1:10 worth of flying time under the pilot's seat as well for extra fuel. This with a passenger on board as well.

When flying with a passenger, I would say the endurance would drop to around 3:40 with no reserve (based on 20l/hour travelling at 90 mph).

In theory, if I carry 2 x 25l fuel tanks on the rear seat, and carry an extra 20l under my seat, I can fly for 7:30 with no reserve, which gives just under 1 000km range. Handy if flying very far.

What diff in speed and fuel consumption will 20kg make on a Magni or MT03 i always seem to bring up the rear end when flying is this because im heavier then most of the other pilots?

FO Gyro
Finally a voice of reason - I totally agree with all your statements. I am not interested in the "mine is bigger than yours" - for me it is about flying and regardless of what you fly - enjoy your time in the air safely.
I am not sure about my fuel consumption as I am still training so it varies according to what exercises we are doing that day (circuits use up a lot more fuel).
I make no excuses for flying a Sycamore and love my plane – It is stable, comfortable and safe, climbs at 1000 ft/m 2 up and cruises at 80mph and does all this whilst looking really sexy (my very own little apache helicopter).
I would like to be able to get places so I have build a “in-flight refueling pump” – strap the tank to the back seat and I can get pretty far, how far I can get will remain to be seen.
I am not obsessed with speed as being in the air is the big thrill for me – learn a lesson from the microlight guys, they don’t walk up to you and comment on how much better they perceive their aircraft to be – they welcome you to the fly away and offer any assistance needed. They don’t fly in a group of just Aerotikes or Aquila’s they fly in a group of microlights.
Their discussions are based on genuine interest in aviation and aerodynamics.
I was having this very discussion with a very experienced gyro pilot the other day and his comments were very valid. This division that has crept into the gyro community has been caused by a few people who have had financial motives (no names mentioned but you know who you are) – I like the look and characteristics of most of the gyros that we fly so lets not be left with the heritage created by a few.

Lets foster a gyro community !!! and enjoy flying together.

Good post Eagle1.

Regards

SARAF

Hi Eagle1

I have just stated the facts. Nothing about mine is better than yours.

We have done a trip from Grand central to Thabazimbi on Saturday and from Grand central to Mabalingwe , Welgevondend Rooiberg and back on Sunday.

We are busy planning a trip to Messina, Pontdrift from Grand central.
Range starts to play a very big roll. Not all the airfields have fuel and the distances between airfields are very long and it starts to get difficult to plan a safe trip even in a Magni and Ela.

An Example of the second leg of the trip, we arrange fuel at Potgieterrus
Potgietersrus Tzaneen Louis Trichard is 2 hours plus @ 80 mph.
We will land at Louis Trichard and refuel from AUX tanks. Nearest fuel Polokwane.
Then another hour of flying with 20 liters from the Aux tanks.

Do the math – It will be very marginal in a Sycamore .

T-Bird
As I said above I do not know what my endurance is, the aircraft handbook states that the endurance is 3 hrs – so at 60 litres it must be burning 20 litres per hour. That was on the old rotor (31ft composite) This new rotor has changed things somewhat so we are still flying to get some kind of idea of consumption. The figures are the figures – I am not arguing that, its just that the new rotors are so much more efficient that we are not sure of the exact figures yet. The old rotors also used a higher RPM to sustain straight and level flight from what I hear around 5300 RPM (2up) and the fuel consumption would naturally be higher. I don’t have any MP figures so don’t know the numbers fore sure.

The great thing that I have experienced with my aerie is that the rotor create a lot of lift and to lose height I have to come right back on the power – I am not fighting to maintain my altitude or climb, open the noise and she goes up, I am sure that your ELA has never had this problem but the older Sycamores had nowhere near as much lift and how much fuel was put into the aircraft and how heavy your passenger is was always a consideration. As for cross country – I am not sure but looking forward to exploring the distances that I can fly because it means that I am getting away from the patch and going somewhere.

I am going to start by working on a 2 hr cruise (@80mph) and will just have to see how far that takes me and work around this for fuel. I will start to stretch my legs from there. I can carry and refuel in flight so that will be an option but then I will have to fly alone and I enjoy company. I am jealous that you guys are doing such great flyaways and hope to join you when I get my wings. Before flying to Musina get hold of Stefan Grove from Sycamore - He is a good guy and will be happy to assist with organizing hangerage and a lodge to sleep over at. He organized our accommodation at a stunning lodge for very little. If you need his number give me a shout.

Hi Eagle1

What about unusable fuel ?
And warm up and taxi ?
And safety factor ?
60 liters less 10 is 50 liter.
If you can fly at 20 liters an hour great. I think it would be more in the 25 liter range.
That gives you 2 hours and less

You Ldel and Josua should join us.

We should do a trip to the Botswana border near Ellisras.

We have accommodation and access to an airfield on a game farm on the Border.

As a non-gyronut (although I wouldn't mind flying them) I agree with Eagle1. There is definately a division by brand within this camp.

In the Western Cape the balance of microlights swings slightly in the 3-axis favour but the trike market has grown somewhat with enthusiasts like gertcoetzee, Ranger, Gadget, CLU-Less, Bachuss, Tobie, MidLifeCrisis, Tsotsi to name a few are really flying the trike flag.

We actually don't ever seem to get into a 'mine vs yours' debate, rather we work out how we can accomodate the faster, slower, less experienced, more experienced, shorter range guys all collectively so we can achieve our goal of flying away to the next flyin. We have 3-axis Challengers flying nose high and slow with the trike boys, trike guys leaving 10 minutes per sector ahead of the 3-axis boys only to meet up at the next bum/smoke/leg break.

Face the reality boys there will always be different brands, without them the products will never be improved. If it continues the generic Gyro Talk forum will die and the market will go back to individual product specific forums that just continue to further split a really small group of great guys. Forget the bulls!t have fun

Well put Morph !

2 hrs will give me a safety factor of 1 hr , this should be plenty for warm up and safety factor of ½ hr + for safety (wind etc.)

As I said ealier I am doing circuits now and this uses up more fuel.

Hi Eagle1

I tend to agree with FO, getting there is half the pleasure and a truly wise person should prolong whatever pleasures life has to offer.

My philosophy is that what I have is a relatively expensive toy and I am going to use it for playing - plain and simple - if I wanted to get from point A to point B 300 km away I would have bought a Sting or the like for about the same price.

You are a bit too close to Kitty to need a fuel stop there (I hope so anyway otherwise you had better check to see if you actually have a Lycoming and not a Rotax) but message me if you have a visit planned and perhaps we can have breakfast.

Hi Guys

Faster or not faster is not the issue, but if you are a potential owner it is somthing to keep your investigation interesting until you decide.

Endurance is more important, but: with a bit of planning and speaking to Johan Meyer who knows a lot of Gyro pilots all over RSA, fuel is always available. I think a good idea is not to fly streches of more than 2 hours, have a break, get fuel, coffee and start fresh.

All gyros can maintain 80mph, so we can all fly together and have fun.

There will always be some people in a group that fly 1-up, and try to break some speed records. The heavier two-up group will follow and land 2 minutes later on a two hour strech, all had fun in the process.

We should advertise amongs ourselves our intentions for the weekend and do more breakfast runs and one night sleepovers.

Eggbeater - Great idea, its about 20 mins from Brakkies to Kitty and as soon as I am "let out" I will be getting in touch for a breakfast. You guys (Kitty) do great breakfasts I must say.

Condor - I agree totally, lets get some shorter flyaways organized, maybe the BIG cross-countries (4days) are a bit intimidating for newer pilots but whatever you do - I like your idea of involving newer pilots is events.

See guys this is what I like- gyro guys sticking together and growing interest in our aeries because lets be honest they are pretty cool toys.

Hi All,

Am a non gyro- naut.

So what will be your fuel consumption on a typical long trip.

Maybe have a look at petrol receipts from previous trips.

Just curious

Kind regards,

Gunter Rostek