Gyros vs Jets

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Gyros vs Jets

Postby Yoda » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:27 am

:?: Now this question is aimed at FO-Gyro cause I once heard someone make the statement that gyros can hande the same wind as a boing 747. They also mentioned that a gyro is basically the safest airie you can get.

Now it would be interesting to hear from you how does a gyro compare to a jet with regards to handling wind and turbulance.

Is it more stable than a jet?? and do you feel safer in your gyro than in a jet. Rgds.
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Gyros vs Jets

Postby FO Gyro » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:29 pm

Yoda to answer your questions, I did do a comparison of the wing loading of various large fixed wings to that of a gyro to compare how a gyro handles turbulence. The thread can be found at:
viewtopic.php?t=5300

Because of a gyro's high wing (or more correctly) blade loading, it compares somewhere close to that of a Learjet. Also, the tip of a gyro is flying at around 600km/h, so the gyro handles turbulence as though it is a Learjet flying at 600km/h! Gyro's can handle a lot turbulence, and I would say, on a normal hot summer's day, the gyro is far easier to handle, and is more stable than the Boeing 737 that I fly. On the other hand, I have landed in a 70 knot wind before in a Boeing jet, and am not sure I would like to have flown my gyro in the same conditions, so gyro's definitely have their limit. Gyro's also don't have the penetration that a heavy aircraft has if severe sink is encountered by rotors from the leeward side of a mountain. I also wouldn't like to fly in a 40KT wind around some of those Cape mountains in my gyro. Maybe Jetranger can comment here how bad the turbulence gets around these mountains in a gyro.

I do feel that gyro's are the safest form of flying amongst single engine aircraft, because they can't stall like a fixed wing, and can't run out of rotor RPM like a helicopter. Talking about safety, I heard an interesting stat the other day: A jet airliner is 10x safer than a car, which in turn is 10x safer than a light aircraft. Whenever flying one's trike/gyro etc. one must therefore remember you have a 10x greater chance of dying in your light aircraft/trike/gyro than in your car. Sobering, but considering the various incidents and accidents around that involve powerlines etc, this is easy to believe. Prior to leaving on an airline jet, the most dangerous part of the journey is your drive to the airport in your car!

I'll be honest, I feel 100% safe in a Boeing in the worst turbulence possible. One must bear in mind I fly with a sheet of metal around me that is at least 5mm thick , with a glass windscreen that is 30 mm thick. I do find that when flying very high in the gyro (around +-2000 feeet and above), and encountering some turbulence, I do get scared and feel quite uncomfortable. There's no reason for it. Maybe my brain tells me I am going to fall out! At low altitude, I am not at all scared though in the gyro, even if the flying conditions are really bad. Helicopter and gyro's are best flown at low altitude because of this. Maybe one feels safer in a fixed wing because of the perceived solid feel a wing gives, or an enclosed cabin, although this is boring for me!

Flying jets requires much more anticipation, than flying gyro's. On a straight approach to the runway, we already start running our flap when we are 20nm (38km) from the runway threshold. If you leave it any later, one won't make it. We also start our descent from around 100nm (180km), depending upon our weight, the QNH, upper winds etc. The thrust of the engines comes all the way back, and the jet effectively glides for 20 minutes it takes us to reach circuit height. Company policy says we have to have our thrust returned back to an approach setting (ie not at idle), the gear must be down, and full flap must be selected by 1000 feet on the approach, otherwise a Go Around has to be initiated (SAA requires us to fly a Stablised Approach). Every single approach of ours is monitored and analysed to see if we have remained inside of the various company limits. Glide approaches are not flown in jets. They tend to fly into the ground if flown this way!
Last edited by FO Gyro on Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Gyronaut » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:40 pm

I'll hazard a guess as to his answer in the meantime...

Stability - Jet will be more stable overall due to its weight (inertia), the wingtip of a gyro turns at about the same speed as that jets wing is going thru the air, more drag, less weight. A Gyro is still far more stable than a much slower moving aircraft.
Safer - Sheer size of the jet plus comfort element would make it feel safer BUT I suspect he feels more directly in control of his fate and thus safer in his Gyro.

The main disadvantage in a Gyro is that there is no cabin service and you seldom get to report 'top of D' (Dee being the pretty little chief cabin attendant that 'happens' to be on all your flights) :D :D

At least in a Gyro you never get asked "Chicken or beef?"

:lol:
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Postby Gyronaut » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:41 pm

Wow! Timing! You beat me to it FO
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Postby FO Gyro » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:59 pm

Jetranger, actually it's Glenn. FO Gyro is for First Officer Gyro, Senior First Officer being my official rank at SAA.

Would you agree, talking about turbulence, flying in a 40kt wind, around those Cape mountains is probably a bad idea? Otherwise gyro's handle most things that come their way...I'm a Valie, and must confess I don't have a lot of experience flying gyro's in those big mountains of yours. They look quite terrifying in an open cockpit!
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Postby FO Gyro » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:04 pm

Jetranger, actually it's Glenn. FO Gyro is for First Officer Gyro, Senior First Officer being my official rank at SAA. That's the same as being a co-pilot.

Would you agree, talking about turbulence, flying in a 40kt wind, around those Cape mountains is probably a bad idea? Otherwise gyro's handle most things that come their way...I'm a Valie, and must confess I don't have a lot of experience flying gyro's in those big mountains of yours. They look quite terrifying in an open cockpit!
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Postby Gyronaut » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:15 pm

I agree Glenn, 40kt wind around these mountains in anything is going to be very bumpy. I chose to make a precautionary landing in Ceres not too long ago because the front got there before I did. Seeing your VSI go to -1 000fpm under full power and watching your airspeed run around frantically while getting thrown around can be quite disorientating. Helps a lot if you trust your machine and know it can handle it, question that always goes thru my mind is can I handle the turbulance? because thats what counts. I avoid the mountains and go to a lowish flight level if the wind is blowing and I have to cross. I also dont enjoy being really high in a gyro, even though mine is enclosed, for some reason I feel really vulnerable. Maybe its the thought of a 737 coming through my windscreen that scares me?

I also find that I am far happier facing turbulance when I am alone in the machine. For some weird reason I feel quilty if pax are thrown around and I feel it is my fault. Alone its a non-event, with someone else on-board they talk about it afterwards and its as if thats all they remember about the flight! Do ALTP's feel the same or dont you care?

Speaking of landing in Ceres... Thats another huge benefit of a Gyro. On this occasion I found a large warehouse with a service road in front of it almost in town, did the 6S heli recce approach (Size, Shape, Slope, Sun, Secure, eScape route) and parked in front of the door. Gyro takes so little space they were more than happy to push it inside for collection when the weather cleared. Getting out was a non-event a few days later. (video of it on my Facebook if you wanna take a peek). Fixed wing would have had to land at Ceres airfield where there is no shelter and nobody for miles for a lift. Fixed wing would not have fitted through the door of this warehouse anyhow.

I know Brian says its easy to take wings of some types but I dont agree, takes at least two people and where do you put them? leave them next to the runway? Kak idea Brian! Just get a gyro and get over it.
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Postby FO Gyro » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:26 pm

Your concern for your passenger (pax) definitely shows ATP material there! You are right, no point making one's pax scared, and they do talk. When doing my airline flying, we try and be as gentle on controls, because it is very easy to pull +tive or -tive g, and the average businessman doesn't get impressed if he spills his orange juice on his laptop. Whenever I take up a pax, I don't throw the gyro around at all, maybe doing a gentle vertical descent just to show that the gyro can do. Doing high speed beat up's with a pax for me is also a bad idea. Rather do that by oneself. Gyro is also so much more manoeuvrable with 1 up.

Thanks for the insight on mountain flying. Did some reading on mountain flying. They reckon the worst rotors are found 3000 feet and below the highest peak. That would be too scary and unfortable for me in a gyro to fly so high.

Interesting that you feel vulnerable, even in a closed gyro, when high. I wanted the Xenon gyro to get away from this feeling. Looks like it woudn't have help going for the Xenon.
Last edited by FO Gyro on Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Learjet » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:38 pm

Hello Glenn - hopefully we'll get to fly with you when you get your MT-03 down to Slaapstad.

With that CV of yours I very much doubt there's much we can teach you about flying - even if it is in the Cape mountains!
Few tips that I've collected from wiser more experienced pilots than me:

Before heading for the big rocks - check out the paragliding / hang-gliding websites - they often have links to wind / weather stations located on some of the mountain passes with realtime wind reports.

Cloud over Hottentot Holland mountains means the South Easter is humping.
Puff of cloud above or covering the top of Lions Head - North Wester and rain on the way. (if you can't see Lions Head due to cloud - it's already raining!)

Climb and descend well ahead / past the mountain. Approach / cross at 45% so that you can turn away easily if necessary. Fly in the middle of a valley etc. The mountains on either side of a valley are often held together with wires! These wires also seem to attract wind.

I'm often teased about being an "astronaught" when it comes to flying over mountains - it may be because I can never remember the clearance ratio for mountain height flying :oops: so I just go high enough till I don't feel the bumps. (and hope that you aren't flying your bus that way!) I figure flying high is like swimming - if it's deeper than you can stand then as long as you're swimming ok it doesn't really matter if it's 60 feet or 6 thousand below you! :lol:

Give way to eagles. When it comes to gyros they tend to be territorial and have the mindset of a Yorkie confronting a Boerbull. :twisted:

:lol: :lol:
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Postby FO Gyro » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:02 pm

Learjet wrote: With that CV of yours I very much doubt there's much we can teach you about flying - even if it is in the Cape mountains!
Not sure about that at all. Thanks for the advice. Very valuable. I just don't trust the wind with those big mountains. Even from my Boeing they look huge. We get away from them as soon as possible after take off. Did a Cape Town and back today. Looks like there are some nice gorges one could slip through flying from JNB to Cape Town in the gyro, from Ceres, heading towards Wellington, thereby staying away from having to climb.
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Postby Learjet » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:16 pm

Looks like there are some nice gorges one could slip through flying from JNB to Cape Town in the gyro, from Ceres, heading towards Wellington, thereby staying away from having to climb
Yep... Mitchells Pass (Ceres - Wolesley) and Baine's Kloof Pass (Wolsley - Wellington) are popular gap routes. I still prefer to go up and over - those kloofs don't have much in the way of emergency landing spots and contrary to what the trout fisherman say, those rivers don't look inviting either.

hey and after reading your very interesting report on wing loadings I just use the same routes as the lear-jets. Up and over boys! :wink:

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