10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

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fransstrydom
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10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:38 pm

RAASA and COMET responded to the question i had regarding the 10 year old series 9 Rotax engines.SACAA did not respond,but the day is not over yet,maybe they are still playing the musical chair game.
The bottom line is:10 year engine replace the crankshaft.NO EXCEPTIONS OR "ON CONDITIONS."
That leaves us with a bit of a dilemma.i Believe that this is going to be series knock for general aviation.This is a lose lose situation for everybody.Rotax has now seriously opened the door for alternative engines.
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby greg vos » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:05 pm

fransstrydom wrote:RAASA and COMET responded to the question i had regarding the 10 year old series 9 Rotax engines.SACAA did not respond,but the day is not over yet,maybe they are still playing the musical chair game.
The bottom line is:10 year engine replace the crankshaft.NO EXCEPTIONS OR "ON CONDITIONS."
That leaves us with a bit of a dilemma.i Believe that this is going to be series knock for general aviation.This is a lose lose situation for everybody.Rotax has now seriously opened the door for alternative engines.
Francois Strydom
Frans so if a client has a 10 year old engine with 400-600 Hours it simply now reduced to rubbish....
this law if introduced will dilute any aircrafts value substantially? and then what or how do we apply the rule of experimental? I think we need to all stand in unison and voice our concern?

In March 2010 BRP received authorization to move the 1200 TBO to 2000 Hours on all its 9 series engines? this was communicated to all via EASA, we were all just holding our breath hoping our local CAA would follow the lead?

I think this could be a quick move to increase profits? with Rotax now having a captive audience? I feel this crank replacement thing will kill GA and will have negative effects on guys who are already struggling to stay in the air with all the rising costs? what does Aeroclub say as they kindly charge us all to be part of them? can they help?
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:18 am

Greg,
the extension of TBO is only relevent to newer engines.This is not applicable to the 4417 engine number engines.This is how i understand it at least.The problem here is not the SACAA or Comet aviation.The engine manufacturer refuses to carry any sort of responsability for those engines,and for that reason i can understand that our authorities will follow suite.I will definately not ask from any AP to carry that reponsibilty.Pierre Laubser at RAASA was very evasive and insist on what the law says,which in this case was the formal declaration issued on this forum a while back.We will be flogging a dead horse to tray and force CAA into a different direction.
We have but ons option,and that will be to replace those engines with something different.Wagtail also spent a lot of time with development of the 2L turbocharged Subaru for thr Trojan.As we are not on speaking terms his number is 082 452 8193 should you want to talk to him.For what aircraft are you looking for an engine?
Because of the current predicament i would strongly advise that we do something local,something cheap to buy and something cheap to maintain.In the worst case,If you i have a choice between two crappy engines i would go for the cheaper one,and the easier one to maintain.Going for a Ukranian option is not an option.We have some of the best engineers in the world,and even developing a local totally new engine is not very difficult to do.Remember that the 9 series engines is a sixty's design,havent had an upgrade in all that time,oh they added fuel injection last year.Remember the saga about their oil filters,you had to use thei
r original filter because it is the best,well two years ago suddenly there was a new oil filter from Rotax.Does that imply that the previous filter was not as good as they said,and then the spark plug saga.
GA is going to suffer severely,specially if you cannot replace your aircraft every couple of years with a new one.Remember it is sports and recreation,the sports seems to be there but the recreation is 100 % stress.
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby Alkemac » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:36 pm

This looks a pretty respectable replacement

http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz202.html
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Certainly good looking engines.What is the ruling with 2 stroke engines and their TBO/LIFECYCLE.How does this compare to the 582 for instance and price.That 3 cylinder looks mean.
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:41 pm

In discussion with Niren at Comet.I will supply engine serial numbers for him to follow up.Niren,a valve train consist of the following parts and including the camshaft,up to the valve.Thank you for offering your help.
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:30 am

Got a reply from Comet Aviation and i also spoke to some people.
Rotax BRP will pay for replacing the valve lifters with the following proviso.
1)The services were done according to the Rotax manual.
2)Results were entered correctly on the relevant pages.
3)The service was carried out by or under the supervision of an AP.
The back of the manual have several pages dedicated just for this purpose.One of the items listed there is the checking of the magnetic plug,and the oil filter,spark plugs etc.Now,if an engine about to fail is picked up in time corrective action can be taken,before the engine fails catastrophically,with a lot more damage than what Rotax is prepared to refund.
So,i was unduly harsh on Niren.My apology Niren.
This illustrates that the AP system is failing.
1)Some of the AP's do not check the magnetic plug,or cut open the oil filter,or purge the engine correctly.Seems it can be proven that engines where the camshaft is also damaged these procedures were not followed correctly.
2)The service records are not completed satisfactorily,which means that there is no proper record of work done on your engine
3)Your insurance can refuse your claim in case of an accident.
We must now find a way of ensuring that all AP's are firstly aware of this,and secondly that the correct procedures are followed.
I know for a fact that people like Andre Maartens and Glen Meyer adheres to this procedure,and it came as quite a shock to discover there are AP' not doing it correctly.
So what do we do.?
SUGGESTION
1)The owner must insist on and check that these checks were done and noted in the correct places.
2)Looks like a job for the ARO's.All AP's AND AMO's should recieve a memorandem to make them aware of this situation.
3)The AP system must be looked into.We are all aware of the complexity of this problem,and looks like a situation not likely to improve.This sector of recreational sport is expensive,and the AP is eventually the only person to try and soften the blow on his friends budget,iow,he is working very long hours,carry a huge responsibility and is the first guy in the firing line,all for very little reward.
SUGGESTION
1) Now this is where i am stuck.Come on you clever guys,we need some assistance here.
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby weedy » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:57 am

Im not one to get involved with debates etc I tend to loose focus to quickly.

Having said that I would just like to say that Rotax should accept log book entries that is where the regs say these issues must be entered.

I have owned a number of rotax powered aircraft and non came with the rotax engine manual, I have always had to download off the net.

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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:37 pm

Claude,
These pages are in back ofthe service manual.The AP is supposed to make copies of these pages and after completing these must go into the AP's file of your aircraft.It is important the correct procedure is followed here,and it the responsibility of the AP to see that the correct information is recorded in the correct places.The owner must cross check.This is also news to me,but i thought the AP's were all aware of this.Seems not.It will be a bummer if you claim from the factory only to discover they are not happy with the paperwork.Maybe Niren can explain this in more detail.
Remember that there are engines out there bound to fail,detect it early to protect yourself.
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:57 pm

Very interesting question came through via PM.
Will the AP be liable if the correct documentation procedures were not followed in case of a claim.This is a very good question.New can of worms.Seems the Aeroclub has now some sort of insurance to cover AP's,but the engines are excluded.Can anybody give us an answer?
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:02 pm

You know,it dawned on me that i am using the system without closing the feedback loop.I must redirect these forums to our fearless leader at SAGPA.No wonder i feel like i am talking to myself.
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby greg vos » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:14 pm

fransstrydom wrote:You know,it dawned on me that i am using the system without closing the feedback loop.I must redirect these forums to our fearless leader at SAGPA.No wonder i feel like i am talking to myself.
Francois Strydom
and who is that?...this SAGPA? an event where the trophies are passed around year after year between a few loyal drinkers??? and ja broers? sorry bud but as gyro owner a Pilot and a member i fail to see what they do...or is it because I live in a city far removed form there office and drinking hole that i cannot see or feel there benefit???....please do not get defensive I feel the same way about Aeroclub...and RAASA :evil:
the web site at debbie does dallas gets refreshed more often...and i have not been there since the 70's
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby greg vos » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:15 pm

fransstrydom wrote:You know,it dawned on me that i am using the system without closing the feedback loop.I must redirect these forums to our fearless leader at SAGPA.No wonder i feel like i am talking to myself.
Francois Strydom
and who is that?...this SAGPA? an event where the trophies are passed around year after year between a few loyal drinkers??? and ja broers? sorry bud but as gyro owner a Pilot and a member i fail to see what they do...or is it because I live in a city far removed form there office and drinking hole that i cannot see or feel there benefit???....please do not get defensive I feel the same way about Aeroclub...and RAASA :evil:
the web site at debbie does dallas gets refreshed more often...and i have not been there since the 70's
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:28 am

weedy wrote:Im not one to get involved with debates etc I tend to loose focus to quickly.

Having said that I would just like to say that Rotax should accept log book entries that is where the regs say these issues must be entered.

I have owned a number of rotax powered aircraft and non came with the rotax engine manual, I have always had to download off the net.

regards
claude
Had a long discussion with Andre Maartens about his modus operandi concerning the log book entries.He enters a note under the engine section in the logbook that states that the service was carried out according to the prescribed procedures,and he signs the logbook,but,the complete checklists that he used to do all the checks are stapled onto the job card,and goes into his records.He has a detailed description of the checks done.HERE IS THE PROBLEM:
1)It seems there are AP'S not doing this,and then there are the people that does there own services.
2)There seems to be no direction from the supplier(as to the exact processes to be followed)
3)I find a massive gap in all sectors regarding communication.
There are sections of this service schedule that pertains to things like carb balancing,gearbox friction tests,compression tests,blowby tests,and the likes that require special tools and equiptment.to service an engIne is not simply replacing oil,spark plugs and filters.
The ATF et al will be issued,but check that your AP entered all the specifics,else you may end up with egg on your face should you want to claim fro BRP.
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Re: 10 YEAR OLD ROTAX ENGINES

Postby fransstrydom » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:08 am

greg vos wrote:
fransstrydom wrote:You know,it dawned on me that i am using the system without closing the feedback loop.I must redirect these forums to our fearless leader at SAGPA.No wonder i feel like i am talking to myself.
Francois Strydom
and who is that?...this SAGPA? an event where the trophies are passed around year after year between a few loyal drinkers??? and ja broers? sorry bud but as gyro owner a Pilot and a member i fail to see what they do...or is it because I live in a city far removed form there office and drinking hole that i cannot see or feel there benefit???....please do not get defensive I feel the same way about Aeroclub...and RAASA :evil:
the web site at debbie does dallas gets refreshed more often...and i have not been there since the 70's
Some years back we had all these bodies,but the system worked differently.Licenses,ATF's,in fact everything was issued by CAA.You paid the dues and went there to collect.The other body's was not involved,in fact,for many years i wondered why i had to belong to all these institutions.I prefere the old way,it was one directional and easy to understand.The other bodys had no power and were in fact something you had to belong to,but they didn't bother you.That was in fact the better days.Then CAA decided it was time to create some jobs,and they created RAASA under the auspices that it will be a body that carries out some of the admin functions of CAA.It started of well,but then some of the constabulary there decided they are important and started making there own interpretations of what is acceptable.
To compound to our misery,CAA decided we need ARO's.i Must admit,i do not know what the Rennies brigade are supposed to do.Seems like they are the organizers of the annual AGM,deciding what should be added to the contents of the first aid kit.No feedback,no communication.Maybe they follow the Comet Aviation rout,they dont partake in forums.
I would like to see:
1)Belonging to aeroclub is not compulsary,these back patters achieved very little last year,and yes,i read there magazine
2)I would like to see SAGPA revert back to what it was,or perform some form of function or disappear altogether.
3)First aid kit and fire extinguisher and compass not compulsory.
4)No ramp inspections as that will not be necessary
5)ATF pasted on the side of your aircraft,every year a different colour.This will imply that you have
a)a Valid license
b)a Valid medical
c)a valid ICASA license
d)a Stainless steel identification plate.I think that it is important.
6)No compulsary map
The system is now feeding on itself,the inertia enormous,communication is non existent.
Remember,that each and every little law introduced is a potential loophole for the insurance companies.By the way,did you notice that insurance is the main reason for the majority of these laws,to protect your bank loan.If you have to go and borrow 2 million to buy an aircraft for recreational use you should not have it.By the time you repaid that loan you will have paid in excess of double that,excluding your insurance premiums,and these people will look for any little loophole not to pay out a claim.
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