Gyro really the ultimate?

[Steve_SP]

Balance - to offer a little balance you may wish to refer to the following two Cavalon accidents

Just visit my Blog and scroll down to

http://gyroaccidents.blogspot.co.uk/

11th June 2013 - UK - rollover - with link to UK AAIB report

27th June 2012 - Germany - fatal - with link to German BFU report


Aviation - take care - fly safe


Steve

[saraf]

Geen comments van ons head of saftey en training nie, maar toe die arme RAF se naam opkom toe kon hy homself net nie weerhou nie..............

[M I Claase]

Saraf, Blykbaar is dit net die RAF wat in insedente en ongelukke betrokke is. Volgens sekere mense is dit n "flying coffin"! Pleks hy neutraal staan en ander gyro insedente en ongelukke ook op hierdie forum aan die groot klok hang. Ek het vir hom nuus, ek verkies my RAF enige dag bo n ander Gyro vir dit waarvoor ek hom gebruik.

[Gyronaut]

Klein Eben Mocke (SARAF)

Voor jy weer heeltemal 'n gek van jouself maak... Ek is NIE meer op die SAGPA kommittee nie! Duh. Lyk my jy moet meer aandag gee aan wat in jou bedryf aangaan.

Jy is vinnig om op jou perdjie te klim maar stel jouself nie verkiesbaar sodat die lede van SAGPA self besluit of jy geskik is vir die posisie of nie. Jy lewer ook nie kommentaar op my uitdaging om pyltjies te speel nie - jy sonder stertvere. Jou stilte is oorverdowend en spreek boekdele.

Ek vra weer, wat maak jou RAF beter as die in die UK AIB se verslag sodat dit veilig vinniger as 70mpu kan vlieg en dat dit met deure aan kan vlieg? Jy weier om dit te antwoord en intussen kan onskuldige mense dood verongeluk! Weet jy meer as die UK AIB??.

Laaste vraag. Is jou RAF2000 'n "home built" of "factory built" masjien?
Indien "factory built", aan watter standaarde voldoen dit? BCAR-T?

As jy weier om die eenvoudige vrae te beantwoord dan verwerp ek jou opmerkings met die minagting wat dit verdien.

Len Klopper
Ontvanger van Aeroclub SA se veiligheidstoekenning - 2013.
70+ Gyro studente opgelei sonder insident.
Gekwalifiseer as instrukteur op ALLE Gyro's beskikbaar in SA - behalwe RAF2000.

[whirly]

I am not considering the RAF so please don't spoil my thread with bickering.

Would a roll over of a gyro be eqaul to a hard landing in a chopper...................................not the chopper's fault?

Whirly.

[Yoda]

Yes Whirly, Rolling over a gyro is mostly pilot error,caused by cross wind situations when the pilot fails to land straight on the runway. The "top heavy" disc and the centrifugal force of the rotor is a "dangerous" combination....

The gyro "cocks" into the wind and needs rudder input to keep it straight. No need to worry about it though... Its a matter of getting it right.
I have found that the "castering" nose wheel of the magnis are much more forgiving because the wheel has the ability to change direction quickly where as the straight down front wheel as found on the Ela has a tendency to "bite" on touch down.... Again, no need to worry... its a case of good training and mastering cross winds on the specific machine you will fly... :

A Flat back wheel can probably also cause a roll over situation on landing, but I'm not sure... maybe someone with experience can shed some light...

[okflyer]

I could not agree more. There are two scenarios where rudder control is essential. In a take off situation you need to keep the nose following the center line all the time until your speed reaches the safe velocity (100 km for a MTO)to pull the stick and ascent. Fighting the tendency to turn into the wind with lower speeds keeps you prepared for down drafts and flip overs. In a landing situation it is essential to keep the pressure on the rotor while flaring. The feet must line the wheel to the center line.

Getting the procedure of trike and three axes out of your mind is the secret to survive. A tandem gyro behaves different to a side by side as well (based on my experience with MTO vs. Rotortec Clouddancer)

Yes Whirly, Rolling over a gyro is mostly pilot error,caused by cross wind situations when the pilot fails to land straight on the runway. The "top heavy" disc and the centrifugal force of the rotor is a "dangerous" combination....

[mak]

A Flat back wheel can probably also cause a roll over situation on landing, but I'm not sure... maybe someone with experience can shed some light...

Yoda, I suppose it can happen if you land with a lot of speed, but I haven't heard of many such cases. On Saturday I had my first flat back wheel on landing and only realized it when I started to taxi off the runway. Most cases that I know of that happened turned out to be a non event. Perhaps one disadvantage of the side-by-side and enclosed gyros is not being able to check your wheels before landing and preparing for a flat on landing. Better then make every landing as if you have a flat.

Whirly, probably the most important thing for gyro pilots is rotor management on the ground, not only not allowing the wind to get in under your blades, but also rotor RPM on take-off. A lot of rollovers are due to high speed blade flaps on take off.

Being able to manage your rotor will firstly not get you in trouble but might also get you out of an awkward situation. I don't know if any of our local instructors teach their student how to "taxi" through the centre lines, turning right only on the right main wheel and left only on the left main wheel. I know the Autogyro instructor in Germany teach his students this and is an excellent cross control exercise and mastering this must be an excellent tool to have. Like this gyro pilot was exercising at FAKT a while back. Best to try this with your instructor first.

Gyro manoevres

to pull the stick and ascent.

Interesting that you mention this, I was told never to do this and that the gyro should just fly itself off the runway. I would like the opinion of our instructors on this and what they teach.

[okflyer]

[sorry, might not made myself clear. I was trained in Germany (in one of the windiest areas). I learned to get the front wheel up, Keep it in the right angle to increase speed and rotor RPM at the same time. When the back wheels got airborne as well keep center lined at all times until 100 km (foot work to keep the line, stick to compensate wind). Then pull the stick to ascend and turn it into the wind. We did a lot of exercises on the ground like cruising around pylons, keeping parallel to the centerline while shifting right and left, all with turning rotor and front wheel up. Good practice ( even or especially for some one who already got some three axis licenses)

In the moment I am doing conversion training for a side by side with a hydraulic prerotor, and this machine requires different speeds and technics.
Gyro flying is not more unsafe than flying other airies. But requires constant rehearsal, too.

to pull the stick and ascent.

Interesting that you mention this, I was told never to do this and that the gyro should just fly itself off the runway. I would like the opinion of our instructors on this and what they teach.[/quote]

[Learjet]

A Flat back wheel can probably also cause a roll over situation on landing, but I'm not sure... maybe someone with experience can shed some light...

Provided the landings is "normal" in all other respects, a flat tyre shouldn't pose a significant roll-over risk.
I've had two landings with a main gear flat tyre - the first I was completely oblivious of until after the landing when the gyro felt sluggish to taxi. The second was after a rough field take off when my undercarriage check revealed a left main tyre looking like a hedgehog - covered with dubbeltjie thorns. I suspected the tyre would be flat when I landed at Gariep for the North meets south fly-in. Took care to do a very gentle touch down with minimal roll and it was a non-event.

[Gyronaut]

Whirly, you're right. Sorry. I apologise for venting on your thread.

A Gyro is not susceptible to 'ground resonance' or "dynamic rollover" like a heli on a hard landing.
What can happen is that the undercarriage may break/collapse on a hard landing often resulting in fuel tank rupture and then the inevitable fire.

Yoda & Learjet have it spot-on.
I have had flat tyres on landing & its no big deal. Even had a wheelspat come loose & end up under a back wheel, effectively locking it - still managed to keep it upright. Thankfully.

Personally I think a Gyro with H2O2 tipjets & pitch control is the ultimate. Will allow for VTOL & then the efficiency of autorotation during flight. The Fairey Rotordyne did just that in the 50's but was very noisy. I wish someone would do it for our type of machines.

[FO Gyro]

Must say, I'm also waiting for jump take-off's to become common in the next generation of gyro's. Problem is it's expensive and complex to make this a reality.

[crazydoc]

So Whirly, whats your conclusion?

[whirly]

So Whirly, whats your conclusion?

Have not flown (my chopper) since the 5th of October! Will get to Kitty early next year only it seems.

Whirly.