SAGPA

[THI]

Pierre, not to be a buzz kill but IIRC an AP can't inspect and sign off his own aircraft.

Hopefully I'm wrong

[MPL Pilot]

Hi THI

I am quoting Mak

"......until recently certain people still believed you can only become an AP by building your own plane and that AP’s is not a commercial activity. Which young person today has the money to build a plane to become an AP ........"

According to that statement it is possible to become an AP, lets hear from the gyro guru's.

The sky is the limit, how high do you want to go?

[THI]

Pierre - To become an AP is possible, no problem. To become an AP and inspect and sign of your OWN aircraft is another story.

Eg. I didn't build my Sycamore. So now I become an AP but I still need to take my Sycamore to another AP for annual, I can't sign off my gyro.

[mak]

Pierre / Thinus

This AP certification process is still a new subject for me and I am trying to understand the beast that we are dealing with and I would appreciate the people in the know to help us and guide is in the right direction. We are not looking at a once off AP certification, but rather a formal program that are presented every year.

An AP rating are per aircraft type

Categories of aircraft

66.10.3 An approved person certificate may be issued in respect of any of the following categories of non-type certificated aircraft –
(a)aeroplanes, including microlight aeroplanes;
(b)helicopters;
(c)gyroplanes;
(d)gliders, including power assisted and touring gliders;
(e)manned captive and manned free balloons

and then for per aircraft "component" types (modules)

Categories and classes of ratings
66.10.4 (1) The categories of ratings for an approved person certificate are –
(a)inspection rating; and
(b)repair rating.
(2) The ratings referred to in sub-regulation (1) may be issued in one or more of the following classes:
(a)Airframes, for the airframes of any of the categories of non-type certificated aircraft registered in the Republic referred to in regulation 66.10.3, as listed in Document SA-CATS-AMEL. The approved person certificate shall indicate the particular category, class and type or group of types of aircraft airframes for which the holder of the certificate holds authorisation A.
(b)Engines, for the engines listed in the Document SA-CATS-AMEL, installed in non-type certificated aircraft registered in the Republic. The approved person certificate shall indicate the particular type or types of engines for which the holder of the certificate holds authorisation.
(c)Equipment, for –
(i)avionics equipment;
(ii)electrical equipment;
(iii)instrument equipment;
(iv)combination of such equipment.

The approved person certificate shall indicate the particular type of avionics, electrical, instrument or a combination of such equipment for which the holder of the certificate holds authorisation;

(d)Welding.

Firstly the theoretical training. As far as I am aware there are no training organization that provide theoretical training as for AME's, which consists of 6 months of "component" specific training (one module) and then 2800 hours of practical training per "component". I was told that we need to compile and propose a gyro specific training manual for gyro specific AP's. Obviously a lot of modules (ie. engines, avionics, composites, etc) will overlap with other organizations and we need to co-ordinate this training with them. I am also not aware of any of the other Aeroclub sub-sections having any training modules. Do you get any credit if you have a mechanical, electrical, etc qualification for the relevant subjects / modules.
Secondly the practical training. I don't know if there are any guidelines for this for an AP to qualify ie must have done 3 engine overhauls, must have assembled 2 rotor heads, etc, etc. Obviously all these operations must be witnessed and signed off by a qualified person / AP. Must he be specifically registered for training or can any "component" rated AP sign you off on that "component"

Thinus, you are correct, an AP can not sign out his own aircraft. What is the reason for this? Doesn't the responsibility for the aircraft pass back to the owner / PIC anyway once the AP has signed it out.

Does this also apply if you got your AP rating by building your own aircraft?

Like I said, I don't know must about this subject but would like the input and comments about people in the know to put us on the right track.

[MPL Pilot]

Hi Fellow Aviators

Have a look at this document on the RAASA website:

http://www.raasa.co.za/pdf/RA%2066-01%2 ... 202013.pdf


Slowly we are getting there!

[fransstrydom]

What i require from SAGPA presently:
To determine why gyro pilots are so agitated.There is more to this problem than personality clashes or even brand clashes.Seeing this is within the SAGPA mission statement this matter has to be investigated and rectified.Are we being bombarded with paladium radiation or the 8Hz that affects your brian when you pilot a gyro?
SCARY PILOT

[John Boucher]

For the benefit of VT and others.... as MISASA is the ARO in terms of Part 149, for microlights and
LSA aircraft, the same applies to SAGPA and gyros. With SAGPA achieving ARO status in terms of Part 149,
you may think to hell with Aeroclub, SAGPA & RAASA and run straight to CAA. CAA issues you the ATF but
you are still contravening 94.06.1 (2) A law they made... not us!!

94.06.1 (1) Any person operating a non-type certificated aircraft for aviation recreational
purposes or in air displays, shall comply with the standards and procedures determined by the
organisation designated for the purpose in terms of Part 149, if any, and if applicable.
(2) Any person operating a non-type certificated aircraft for aviation recreational purposes
shall be a bona fide member of an applicable aviation recreation organisation designated by the
Director in terms of Part 149 and abide by its constitution and code of conduct, if any.
(3) For the purposes of this Subpart, and until such time that an organisation has been
approved in terms of Part 149, any person operating a non-type certificated aircraft for aviation
recreational purposes or in air displays, shall comply with the flight operation standards and
procedures prescribed for its members by the national body representative of the particular
aviation sport, provided that these standards and procedures include those prescribed in, and
are not in conflict with, the provisions of this Part.

[Vertical Tango]

Dear John Boucher,

You have fallen in the trap like many others.

For the benefit of VT and others.... as MISASA is the ARO in terms of Part 149, for microlights and
LSA aircraft, the same applies to SAGPA and gyros. With SAGPA achieving ARO status in terms of Part 149,
you may think to hell with Aeroclub, SAGPA & RAASA and run straight to CAA. CAA issues you the ATF but
you are still contravening 94.06.1 (2) A law they made... not us!!

You seem to be a very good bureaucrat. My hobby is building and flying what I build.
However, what you have posted above is very true. What I have a problem with, is that you address it to me.
Please explain why ?
I am really starting to enjoy this.
Who is the next to post blindly and make a fool of himself ?

VT

[John Boucher]

VT... your comments as you wrote them

Tinkerbell states that "SAGPA is the representative body of all gyro pilots in SA". This is not correct. It represents only those who are members of SAGPA and it is not compulsory to be a member of SAGPA. I for one am not a member of SAGPA. If you want to pull together numbers to be effective, I suggest that you start with some communication discipline in such a way that ALL gyro pilots understand and participate in your forum.

A bureaucrat normally receives a salary and is confined to a desk job and also a multitude of other definitions I'm sure...

So you say I'm making a fool of myself?

[Vertical Tango]

So you say I'm making a fool of myself?

YES, simply because you are assuming like everybody else that SACAA issued my licence and I am tired to be portrayed as an illegal pilot.
If at least someone with authority (like SAGPA) would take the trouble of checking my file, wherever it is stored, and see who issued the damned thing, instead of blaming people with wild accusations and making them guilty by default because the guy "does not fit".
Coming back to YOUR attitude as a late comer in this story, what did you do better here ? You simply accepted what the others at SAGPA said as gospel and joined in, because by default "they must be right" in accusing me. But you did not do any investigation of your own.
I have never said anywhere and from post no 1 that the SACAA issued my licence, but SAGPA assumed so because I am not a member of SAGPA.
Well I have got somehow a licence and the system allows for that. I have done again a thourough check in the path that I followed and I have got news for them. I am not contravening anything and think again in trying to make me worried. To the contrary, SAGPA should be worried to have made a big BOO BOO here.
We already had left this subject a while back, but somehow you got involved recently. As it was again addressed to me, I had to give you the answer that you deserved.
Who is next ?

[John Boucher]

Jean Pierre, there is something seriously wrong with your attitude sir. At no time did I attack you! Your tone of voice is offensive and I take serious exception to this.
Kindly take your aggressiveness somewhere else!!!

Here we go again. Out of 7 posts 5 are in Afrikaans. This is not a bashing session against afrikaans speaking people that I have the greatest respect for, but those gyro pilots who refuse to post in english do speak english correctly as they would not have obtained their license otherwise.

And just on that point... Am I to believe you are a foreigner in SA then trying to call the shots?

Ek stel voor dat jy dan eerder jou blerrie speelgoed op 'n ander plek gaan uitgooi want as jy dink hierdie is die plek om aandag te soek, is jy, meneer, definitief by die verkeerde plek. U het besluit om my as persoon aan te val waar ek dood eenvoudig op 'n publieke forum kennis gedeel het. U tree op asof net jy die reg het om kommentaar te lewer. Verder op die punt, is Afrikaans 'n amptelike taal in die land en die forum word ook deur plaaslike mense bedryf wat wel die taal verstaan en wel, meneer, daagliks PRAAT! Ek stel verder voor dat u in pas of eerder 'n ander heenkome vind om u uitlatings en persoonlike aanvalle te beoefen!

[nicow]

Jean Pierre, there is something seriously wrong with your attitude sir. At no time did I attack you! Your tone of voice is offensive and I take serious exception to this.
Kindly take your aggressiveness somewhere else!!!

Here we go again. Out of 7 posts 5 are in Afrikaans. This is not a bashing session against afrikaans speaking people that I have the greatest respect for, but those gyro pilots who refuse to post in english do speak english correctly as they would not have obtained their license otherwise.

And just on that point... Am I to believe you are a foreigner in SA then trying to call the shots?

Ek stel voor dat jy dan eerder jou blerrie speelgoed op 'n ander plek gaan uitgooi want as jy dink hierdie is die plek om aandag te soek, is jy, meneer, definitief by die verkeerde plek. U het besluit om my as persoon aan te val waar ek dood eenvoudig op 'n publieke forum kennis gedeel het. U tree op asof net jy die reg het om kommentaar te lewer. Verder op die punt, is Afrikaans 'n amptelike taal in die land en die forum word ook deur plaaslike mense bedryf wat wel die taal verstaan en wel, meneer, daagliks PRAAT! Ek stel verder voor dat u in pas of eerder 'n ander heenkome vind om u uitlatings en persoonlike aanvalle te beoefen!

[John Boucher]

Moet ek dit vir hom vertaal ook?

[Vertical Tango]

John Boucher, the dust was already settled when you decided to have a late charge and create animosity again. There was no need for your interference. You attacked me on your first post, please read it again. This is not beneficial to any party and I will retract from this argument gracefully.
However before I go for good, there are few things that you are completely missing. I am not an agressive person and I have great friends in the flying community. I will simply retaliate when I am pushed around unfairly.
You are picking arguments out of context to make a winning point to your audience. That's fine by me, don't think it goes unnoticed.
I have just learned through another subject that you are also a moderator. A mod is supposed to be unbiased. Your post in Afrikaans is underhanded and a poor show for a moderator.
For your info, yes I am an immigrant like your forefathers were, and from your name you are probably from France too, and I am also a SA citizen that has as much right to speak than yourself, and probably has been in SA before you were born. I pay my taxes here and I vote. I would not push my luck and say that I am more south-african than yourself ! If I have chosen not to speak afrikaans has been for practical and business reasons. Many south-africans do not speak Afrikaans. It is not a sin. Contrary to what you might think, I have a great admiration for the Afrikaner and what he has done in this country. That's why I am here.
Now when the forum deals with "Hangar Talk", I don't have an issue even if you speak Zulu. When we are discussing gyro safety issues and the first post is in english, it would be expected for etiquette reasons that it would continue in english. I asked kindly many times in the past that this rule be observed to no avail. The SAGPA AGM 2 years ago at Kitty Hawk was done at 90% in Afrikaans although the chairman of the meeting asked if there were only english speaking persons in the audience. The result was totally ignored and I walked out 3/4 through as I was out of my depth.
Now that you understand a bit more of where I come from, you can continue ignoring these requests and live in your bubble. Don't waste your time in writing to me in Afrikaans, you are probably insulting me and only your friends take you for a hero. I could use the same tactics but I will not lower myself to insult you in french.
In fact I praise you for your tact and sensitivity in resolving the problem at hand: SAGPA. Well done ! You are the greatest !

P.S. I apologize to the readers for hijacking this thread in my defense. Merci.

[John Boucher]

Jean Pierre

Kindly note that I made comment and reference to an aviation regulation.... where did I attack you in my first post?

I recall you calling me a "fool"!