RAF Flight Behaviour

[Hub-Bar]

George’s accident left me with a lot of questions and I started doing some digging of my own. First of all, I would like to state that another source suggested that George was a low time (60h? NOT verified) gyro pilot – other than what I was initially led to believe. This is maybe why uncalled for references to ‘bulshitters’ and ‘uneducated’ are made on Avcom. This however, is not my concern or mission. I am a RAF pilot and I need to know what is going on with my gyro and why pilots die flying it. I would like to suggest that all RAF pilots carefully study the two accident reports at the following links :

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 003-10.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 009-07.pdf

The subsequent flight testing by properly trained test pilots ordered by the UK CAA indicated dynamic unstable pitch behaviour at speeds above 70 MPH. I have not in my RAF flying experience either known about or encountered the onset of this behaviour or otherwise I may have just unconsciously compensated by correct inputs. I frankly don’t know and am in a process of working through it. This may very well also be the case with many other RAF pilots. I have also not known about phagoid oscillation in aircraft until now that I have been made aware and read up about it. I have had some nasty experiences in severe turbulence and downdraughts, but I don’t know if it is related. In any event I would like to share it with my fellow RAF (and other) pilots in due course. In the meantime I would like to urge all low time RAF Pilots not to exceed 65MPH. After my training, which was before the abovementioned accidents, Eben instructed me to stick to this speed until I started feeling really confident with the RAF. I have flown at 100MPH (you have to trim the stabilator all the way and then push down really hard on the stick to achieve and maintain this) in the RAF and I don’t like it, and my RAF doesn’t like it, so I do not naturally go there. She is sweet at 65MPH. I will be really surprised and extremely upset if the SA CAA does not follow the UK and based on their scientific findings, lower the RAF Vne to 70MPH with immediate effect. All RAF instructors need to fully understand this phenomena and teach it to their pupes. It should also be part of the RAF POI. Maybe this is how it is done, I wouldn’t know. Not sure if the links are going to work - If not, can somebody that know how, fix it please.

[Gyronaut]

Give that man a Bells.

Kidding guys. Lighten up

Francois, I have flown a few hours beside you in your lovely RAF and it performed amazingly well, as you may recall my comments at Pearly Beach.

I, like you (and everyone associated with Gyro's) am keen to eliminate the cause of the RAF accidents, as we are with all Gyro accidents. You are a highly experienced RAF pilot and I admire you candour and forthrightness. I honestly believe that your post above may save lives in the long term.

Well done Sir.

Len

[saraf]

Unfortunately for both of you the facts will indicate the cause of the accident.

[Gyronaut]

Unfortunately for both of you the facts will indicate the cause of the accident.

UNFORTUNATELY?

Are you serious?

Is the fact that we are trying to eliminate Gyro accidents unfortunate?

You need help mate. I fear your judgement may be severely clouded.

Sela

[Hub-Bar]

After my last post, I have had some good calls and some bad telephone calls in this regard. I would like everyone who is concerned with this subject to understand where I am coming from. I love my RAF and I enjoy her very much and I don’t want to be flying and worrying about what I don’t know. My intention is not to harm RAF or to point fingers or convey anything negative whatsoever at all. On the contrary. Our bad weather has improved so this afternoon I took to the air to see for myself what this phugoid oscillation is about. I established a straight and level cruise at 85Mph and everything was smooth steady state behaviour. I then firmly pitched the nose up and returned the stick to neutral with no further inputs. The RAF then pitched down by herself and then started pitching up and down again repeating the motion at a slow frequency but increasing in amplitude on each cycle. I stopped this motion as soon as I could confirm that the amplitude was increasing. Repeated the exercise with a down pitch impulse – same result. This is indeed dynamic unstable pitch behaviour as has been found by the UK AIB. If this oscillation is not stopped – well, I can only think that a tail strike is then quite likely in due course. Fortunately this is very easy controllable and in fact is as I had suspected, we compensate unconsciously – as trained. This is also exactly what happens if you are flying along and you are pitched up or down by turbulence – you naturally correct immediately. Due to the slow frequency you are very reliant on visual cues to make the corrections, i.e. fixed features which you can see outside the cabin. In the dark, or in conditions where you cannot see, I think you could be in deep deep trouble if turbulence upsets your steady state. I recall a situation last year crossing the mountain from Franschoek to Theewaterskloof dam. There was a fair NW blowing and I crossed the saddle at 6500ft descending slowly on the dam side. Turbulence was mild to about 4500ft over the dam when I was suddenly knocked by very severe turbulence. I was facing 45deg away from the direction I was heading and fighting like hell to keep control. I remember very clearly that I did not have time to look at the instruments – it was a case of eyes outside only to maintain control. Therefore the importance of visual cue. One of the AIB reports also address this issue. This was not a nice experience, but other aircraft and gyro types must have their moments in severe turbulence as well?

Now that I understand and have seen the dynamic unstable pitch behaviour referred to in the reports, I am somewhat relieved that it is not the thing I imagined it might be and reduction of the RAF Vne to 70Mph now seems to me not the right thing to do. It would be appropriate to limit the speed in turbulent or suspected turbulent conditions, but that is what I was taught to do anyway and it is just the natural thing to do for any aircraft. I think individual pilots will naturally decide at which speeds he would normally operate and be comfortable at as pilot workload will increase with higher speeds. I do however still feel strongly that this dynamic unstable pitch behaviour should be called by its name and be taught to students for their understanding of how it works and a description thereof should also be part of the RAF POI. What I have done today was superficial, but adequate enough indication for me that it is not something that is going to jump on me unannounced and out of the blue.

Ebie, I have just read your post. It seems to me you guys have a totally wrong impression as to what I am on about. I am just another RAF pilot affected by what happened to George. I believe you guys are going through a very tough time and I am sorry if I inadvertently have made it more difficult for you. That was not the intention. At least I can now once again confidently get into my RAF and enjoy. Hopefully my efforts can be of some value to the other RAF guys as well. We depend on you guys to keep us informed.

[Tumbleweed]

Just as a side note, I was a passive bystander to a very enlightened debate at the Bundu bash amongst highly experienced sceptics and technically minded pilots and I think all came out with an informed understanding of the RAF's characteristics and don't doubt for a second the integrity of Eben and the RAf management and would go for a flip with any of them any day.

[TheBladeRunner]

Len

If been on this forum for a while now and never seem to need to post, was just interesting picking up on numerous occasions on accidents and inccident, you have all the condolances in the world for all aircraft gyros trikes you name it!

But it seems that when ever the RAF is in an incident you are the first to go and find articles on related subjects that according to you is coincidence ...!! I also have some "coincidence" incidence on magnis and ELA an MTO etc.... But you never bring this up in there accidents??? Might your head be in the clouds???? Not seeing the "coincidence"???

Just n post of yourself.... And i qoute..

"May I suggest we move the door discussion to a new and relevant topic under Technical.
Wires caused the impact, otherwise it would have been a normal landing. "

I was there, you aswell ... Everybody is running to the wires for the problem, ok and the door??? Also old discusion but what realy killed them???? Does'nt it seem obvious that the explosion after the landing which was on the wheels, was infact the reason for both pilot and passengers death????? Just asking!! What have YOU Mr Klopper done about this seeing that you are head of training and safety????

You are notorious for badmouthing the RAF ..... We all know this.!!

Stop pointing the finger to the RAF when YOU have not yet done anything with the mayor problems that your machine has.

We can all go and find articals relating to accidents according to what has happend...

You also mention that you have flown with quote " besides" francois!

Am i correct??

This seems to me and makes it obviouis that you have only been a passenger ???

If i am wrong....? What is your experience in the RAF 2000???

Seeing that you know so much about it you must have a couple hundred hours on this machine...????

Or are you just speculating as usaul when it comes the the RAF ????

It is disturbing to me that someone like you representing an aviation body like SAGPA can go about on a public forum and make assumption about accidents of which the CAA accident investigation is still ongoing!!!

I suggest you start focussing on earning your title as the safety and training officer at
SAGPA, instead of throwing this title around like you do so often on the forums. We know you are the title but you need to earn it. When can we expect the TPM on gyros or at least a syllabus, monthly newsletters on what your department has achieved and are busy with. If you put in half the amount of efford you spend on the forums into your department, maybe you would of earned some respect from your fellow gyronauts for your title at SAGPA.

Gavin Mocke

[PieterKotze]

It is my experience throughout my short 55 years that when a person or organisation comes out full guns blazing when being placed in the limelight, you know what?? it sounds like they are guilty! Wat se hulle oor n rokie en n vuurtjie?

I know absolutely nothing about the RAF, except to say that in March 2012 when I was doing my research and planning to become a part of this magnificent Gyro world, my shortlist was Xenon, Magni M24 and RAF 2000, in no particular order, so I have done a desktop study of a lot of things that had been said about the RAF. I have read the results of the British accident report, and must say that I seriously doubt whether our CAA has the knowledge or the inclination to do such a thorough post accident study, maybe if someone like Braam is involved, but other than that we are never going to get a really pro analysis of this accident.

Not being technically minded or a natural aviator, I have to continuously work at both. Thus I thrive on comments by Len, Eric, MAK, Johan S, Eben, etc, because I know that these guys have the experience and knowledge that can make me better. I also thrive on the comments both here and on Avcom when the terrible accidents/incidents that we have had appear, even though some of it sometimes seems pure speculation, I have followed a thread from the 1 st post to the last, and you know what, after shooting down some speculations, others pop up, and when you start getting to the later threads the generally knowledgable Aviators on these forums have normally gotten to the bottom of it.

Having read the AIIB's report some time ago, I re-read it again the other day, and I was just as scared as reported above. I also went out and tried to induce my Zen1 into a PIO, watching the alt meter on the MGL very closely. I found it extremely difficult to induce the gyro into a PIO at any speed, even up to 100 mph when the gyro was trimmed for straight and level. I also tried forcing the nose down and pulling up, on both occasions the gyro stabilised back to its S&L when the stick was back in the neutral position, so in this case I am confident that the stability exists in my Gyro.

Mr Mocke, in stead of going with both barrels as above, why dont you also join in the discussion in trying to solve the issue, an issue that obviously exists in your Gyro that you manufacture/sell. It seems that there are training methods to ensure that RAF pilots do not get themselves into the same position as our late fellow aviator and others, but if there is a problem, why not fix it rather than bandaid it with post problem in flight training and fault management in air. Surely it is much better to have a zero fault aircraft flying rather than having to start every flight with..." by the way we have this inherent problem with this gyro, when you encounter it, this is what you do..."

Just for the general record, and not for any case in particular, I have found Len to be an aviator/instructor of the highest quality, extremely knowledgable technically on all types of gyro's and highly skilled in the principles of flight, which in my personal view gives him carte blance on commenting on all matters gyro aviation.

As for the rant above, I think it is in bad taste and has degraded a general discussion on RAF behaviour that started out as a highly important knowledge transfer to a mud sling from the supplier. I believe the RAF team has a high regard in the SA gyro fraternity and you guys have just commited HariKiri with the post above.

Pieter

[saraf]

Hi to all,

George died flying the aircraft he loved , the RAF 2000.

The postmortem indicated that george died of a massive HEART ATTACK. And this will be indicated in the accident report as well. Our friend died a sudden death and it was confirmed that he was dead in straight and level flight allready.

So to all that speculated the fActs is the facts.

Regards.

[cornell]

Just for the general record, and not for any case in particular, I have found Len to be an aviator/instructor of the highest quality, extremely knowledgable technically on all types of gyro's and highly skilled in the principles of flight, which in my personal view gives him carte blance on commenting on all matters gyro aviation.

As for the rant above, I think it is in bad taste and has degraded a general discussion on RAF behaviour that started out as a highly important knowledge transfer to a mud sling from the supplier. I believe the RAF team has a high regard in the SA gyro fraternity and you guys have just commited HariKiri with the post above.

Pieter

What a fantastic post

[Grumpy]

Gavin.......... What absolute rubbish you've posted !!

[jtresfon]

Sheeesh! Just arrived back from a fantastic Bundu Bash trip to find everyone bashing each other on the forum!!!

Come on guys! All aircraft have their inherent weaknesses and strengths. Some are more or less forgiving than others, some perform better or worse than others. What aircraft you prefer to fly or feel more comfortable in is up to you, choose the one you want and buy it. Why the need to publicly rubbish everyone else's decision in an open forum? If you feel that a particular brand of gyro is unsafe, then show the accident stats to prove it. All gyro makes have had accidents. Most planes as well. As far as I am aware George's accident was the first fatality in a RAF2000 manufactured in SA, and according to the pathologist undertaking the autopsy was the result of a heart attack. Better stats that most other makes available in SA. I have no affiliation one way or the other (personally fly a Magni) but just hate the way the gyro community is so divided and intent on hurting itself. Gyros as a whole need to stand together since there is such a bad perception about all our machines out there. We fly probably the safest small aircraft there is, yet have the reputation for exactly the opposite. If one gyro has an accident it's bad for all of us, no matter which gyro it is.

At the Bundu Bash there were only 5 gyros present, 2 of which belonged to members of the organising team. There were around 40 other LSA planes and trikes present. Over the course of a fantastic event I was treated to flips in some fantastic fixed wings and got to chat to some seriously high time pilots. I was very disappointed that the gyro community was not better represented. I really enjoyed the fixed wings and their owners were properly curious about gyros. What a great platform to have informed and courteous debate on the merits of the different aeries, all with good humour and a few beers! We all love flying. What machine we use to get into the sky is irrelevant. The love of flying should define us as aviators, instead we squabble over petty politics.

During the Sunday of the Bundu Bash a strong Westerly blew up, creating a sandstorm on the desert pan with huge dust clouds and flying sand. Several tents were flattened and two trikes were blown over despite being tied down. At the height of the wind storm one of the gyro pilots arrived back from a flight and performed a beautiful spot landing despite the wind and the reduced visibility from the dust. The pilot admitted to being fairly apprehensive but managed ok and all the fixed wing guys looked on in awe as not many of them would have managed to put down in the same conditions. We fly awesome machines! Let's get out there, do more flying and less fighting please...

Regards
Jean.

[Low Level]

jtresfon -

the gyro community is so divided and intent on hurting itself. Gyros as a whole need to stand together since there is such a bad perception about all our machines out there.

[FO Gyro]

Mud slinging never works.

[PieterKotze]

Gents,

I absolutely agree with all the posts above re in-fighting and mud slinging, but maybe some of us are missing the realities. I am not an expert but I can read, please check the posts currently running on the rotaryforum re the RAF. Are we not maybe standing by while people die!!!! and it seems that this has been going for a long time!

Pieter