Gyros burning after impact?

[Splinter]

Ok I am currently building my solo hours for my gyro conversion and think that a gyro is one of the best flying machines in the air today so don't pick up stones just yet!

I have two very simple question!
1) Why do gyros burn after impact?
2) What are we as a gyro fraternity doing to try and prevent these fires?

On 28/3/2011 Learjet started a topic named "SAGPA - Its time to take the safety bull by the horns" that touched issues regarding aviation safety belts and post impact fires. Since then not a single word further but four people burnt in gyros ,Douglas and All Days!!!

From what I can gather the manufacturers don't want to be involved in this, right? Why do we as gyro pilots not try and find some type of preventive measures that could possibly stop/limit post impact fires and demand that our representing body(SAGPA) help in getting CAA to approve mod applications without the manufacturers? Gyro pilots are burning and as far as I know there is nothing being done about it (Please tell me I am wrong)! Forget about the safety belts and low flying for now, lets focus on the fires, where do they start and how do we stop them?

Fuel Bladders - Buck Rogers manufacture them. Can a mod application be approved in one or another way?
Automatic Deploying fire extinguishers - They are available and explode once in contact with open flames, why not try them?
The fuel system - Cars have G force sensors that switch off the fuel pump and deploy the airbags. Why not try and use these sensors on a gyro fuel system?

Yes there is red tape but can SAGPA help us to try and approve some type of solution?

Regards
Splinter

[Learjet]

Hi Splinter,
There have been a number of related topics about this subject, usually after such an incident. It's something that concerns all of us - however, it is not a problem unique to gyrocopters, but to all rotorcraft which carry fuel "inboard" and in close proximity to the engine. The post-crash fire is usually the final link in the accident sequence chain. Not to downplay the fire risk scenario, but the cause of the accident usually starts long before the fire consequences come into play - with wire strikes probably being the most prevalent statistically.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=15235

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9542&p=104682#p104682

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8490&p=104053#p104053

[Koevoet]

Do anyone know where u can buy a open cockpit fire resistant flying suit.
Dave the one u wearing in your avatar, do u think u get a padded one for winter use in a microlight.

[MADDOG]

Hi Learjet

I think we all understand that the accident sequence starts long before impact, but I most strongly agree with Splinter here.
Many people have died - and more will continue to die - from what would otherwise have been survivable accidents.

Take Formula 1 in the 70s - It took graphical pictures of men dying in there cars and the drivers themselves to get things changed into the relative safety that F1 is today. I am sorry to say, but recent Gyro deaths are due to the apathy within the manufactures, dealers, regulaters and the gyro community as a whole. They do not have the burn on crashing. The technology currently exists to prevent this. Test it, mandate it, fit it and then regulate it. It mays cost a couple of grand extra but life is worth it.

[Splinter]

Hi Splinter,
There have been a number of related topics about this subject, usually after such an incident. It's something that concerns all of us - however, it is not a problem unique to gyrocopters, but to all rotorcraft which carry fuel "inboard" and in close proximity to the engine. The post-crash fire is usually the final link in the accident sequence chain. Not to downplay the fire risk scenario, but the cause of the accident usually starts long before the fire consequences come into play - with wire strikes probably being the most prevalent statistically.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=15235

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9542&p=104682#p104682

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8490&p=104053#p104053

I know, I have seen this topic many times before! What bothers me is that it just stays a topic on microlighters and never sees the test bench or the actual gyro. I think the reason being that it takes some cash to develop and many years of red tape at CAA to have a mod approved. Do it without a mod and no insurance, not a chance anyone will take.

The fire is always the last thing in a sequence of events, I understand that, but that is what caused the most damage in Douglas and probably in All Days as well. I have seen many different aircraft crashes and no fires. Many sequences of events, Low QNH, heavy loads, behind the power curve, low flying, wires with no fires. We WILL save many lives if we can just stop the fires, even if there is a massive sequence of events. That is what we have to drive home and that is what we have to stop, the fires! We need guys with experience and knowledge like yourself to help us come up with feasible ideas and the guys from SAGPA to support us all the way to the top. We have guys like Buck Rogers, Zulu, Johan V L and many others why not use them??? I asked myself the question, could we have saved a life or serious injury in both the Douglas and All Days crashes if we had fire prevention, even if there was a sequence of event leading to the crash that could have prevented the crash entirely?

[Learjet]

Hi Learjet

I think we all understand that the accident sequence starts long before impact, but I most strongly agree with Splinter here.
Many people have died - and more will continue to die - from what would otherwise have been survivable accidents.

MADDOG, I have long been an advocate of gyro safety and the issue of surviving an accident only to succumb to a post-imapct fire is something I've raised at length: read here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5472&p=52758#p52758

[MidlifeCrisis]

I am meeting with a manufacturer of microlight suites this week, I have had a suite made before but all these suites do not have an fire resistant material on the outside, I have purchased nomax which is a fire retardent material used in motor racing, I am going to have a suite made and will keep all members on the forum updated.

This is not the solution but can help to buy some time if a fire starts and you can get out of your plane and away from the direct fire.

[grahame]

Lifted from Avcom: http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=79983
"Andrem: I doubt the gyro fuel tank was filled with Deto-Stop or any other type of honeycomb matrix as these materials block the functioning of the fuel level indicator float & gauge."

http://www.texogatech.com/deto-stop.cfm
The product is lightweight - "30-45 g/Liter for mesh rolls and 55-60 g/Liter for balls".

As for the fuel gauge, perhaps changing to a fuel flow meter?

[Splinter]

Learjet I appreciate the fact that you were one of the advocates for changes and more safety in gyros, we are going to need guys like yourself if we really intend to take this problem on.
As for Grahame, these are the type of things we need to discuss and see what pros and cons they have.

I think the time for talking is over gentlemen, we need to start doing something now.
I have only been flying gyros for a few months so if I offend anyone, sorry!
How about a meeting with some informed, qualified guys in the industry if they are willing to try and help?
Lets have a breakfast or lunch somewhere and see if we can do something about this, make some suggestions, troubleshoot some solutions and take it from there, what do you say?
I have some suggestions but I did not discuss this with any of the guys mentioned below so if you don't want to be or can`t be part of it please feel free to throw a rock in my direction!

Braam Hechter - Knows the inner workings of the CAA. Could need advice on CAA matters.
Johan von Ludwig - From MPL Pilots thread on certifying the UFO gyro it seems that he know quite a bit about these machines and not scared to get the hands dirty.
Alex Rudd - Has been involved in many accident investigations and could shed some light on how and when these fires start.
Eric Torr - As far as I know he is the godfather of the gyro.
Collin aka Maddog - Knowledgeable with regards to automotive engineering that could be incorporated to solve our problem.
Johan Stemmet - Experienced and respected gyro pilot.

Any suggestions of guys that can help or want to help please nominate or volunteer but this has to be addressed.
If I am out of line I apologize but if we can stop just one post impact fire I think its worth a try....

[apollolight]

I think this is certainly a wonderful idea, whilst as mentioned some trikes, helicopters notably the R22 and R44's besides Gyro's are not the only craft to suffer but lately the couple of years or so there have been some horrific Gyro fiery prangs around the globe although in fairness they had struck wires in some cases...and there have further been a few heli prangs that after a high ROD impacted the ground started to burn, apparently besides the fuel tank rupturing fuel lines would sever spewing fuel onto the hot engine...
I certainly feel safer having fuel in the wings…...

What really frightened me though was some of the burn victims in the heli and gyro crashes after a high ROD crash and then fire did not even have vertebrae damage and I thought ok how hard must the vertical descent be to rupture fuel tank and or fuel lines?

An important check is to turn master and fuel off before landing but I’m not sure what the impact of this is on helis and gyro’s, after a high vertical descent for example the hot engine turbo could or will ignite the fuel spillage anyhow...

I'm sorry if I sound dramatic but I've backed off from Gyro's for the above reasons, and whilst I have very little experience on Gyros I've been aviating long enough to recognize a dangerous situation in the waiting...

[Learjet]

Grahame, the problem with forsaking the fuel guage in favour of a fuel flow meter (FFM) is that the FFM will not alert you to a possible fuel system leak - e.g. from a fuel pump or leaking hose etc. It will merely indicate what it calculates should be in the tank relative to the fuel flow being measured and not what is physically there. Perhaps a possible solution may be some kind of enclosed vertical tubed float gauge sytem which won't be affected by deto-stop or other matrixtype tank inserts?

I know that the logical response after such an accident is to question the structural integrity of the fuel tank, however the reality is that the prevalence of gyros suffering post-impact fires has predominantly been limited to high-impact accidents - the majority to date have been powerline / wire strikes which few, if any, fuel tanks would have withstood structurally. The gyro involved in the ALLdays accident had a fuel tank certified to British CAA Section-T regulations and build-specced to withstand a 9G force. Was it enough? No. But then again, what would have been enough to withstand such an impact following a wire strike... ? This is not a problem unique to gyros, but to all heli's where inboard fuel tanks and engine / electrics etc are situated in close proximity to each other. This is not an excuse - just a rotorcraft reality.

So what can we do to avert these horrific accidents? Looking at the broader picture - an analysis of 10 years of gyro accidents data from CAA reports some time ago (I posted a while back in a thread here somewhere) highlighted the glaring problem of inadequate training and insufficient pilot safety education. Low flying resulting in wire strikes and pilot inability to correctly identify and recover from a behind the power curve situations are without doubt the leading cause of severe impact crashes involving gyros. That's a fact. Reduce these and you will automatically reduce the incidence of severe impact gyro accidents - with or without fire, and space-age, armour-plated, bullet-proof fuel tanks are only a partial solution to a wider problem - the shortfall of training and safety education that is typically resulting in high impact accidents in the first place.

Splinter, despite my early grumblings about SAGPA, it has made great strides towards in rectifying these training shortfalls in recent years - take a look at the training syllabus and standards now compared to 2 or 3 years ago and you'll see a vast improvement. Similarly, the South African CAA is now clearly seeking to adhere more closely tothe British B-CAR Section-T regulations and standards for gyros going forward. These are all positive developments from a safety point of view - but the ultimate safety improvement factor still lies with us the gyro PIC.

[lion]

With regard to post crash fires - are there any statistics of how many gyros burned following a crash that were carrying a passenger on the back seat (which is the fuel tank) compared to post crash fires with just the pilot on-board.

A 50 to 90 Kg pax sitting on the fuel tank with a high ROD compared to an empty seat (fuel tank)......?

I know of two wire strikes where the pilot was alone and the craft still burned.

Lion

[t-bird]

Hi Learjet

The Magni’s fuel tank extends vertically behind the seat.
If the mast moves in an accident it breaks the upper part of this fuel tank spraying fuel everywhere.
Your ground impact could be low but the forces exerted by a 380 RPM rotor hitting the ground is huge.

Can you share your stats of post fire accidents per type with us ?

[Learjet]

Hi Learjet

The Magni’s fuel tank extends vertically behind the seat.
If the mast moves in an accident it breaks the upper part of this fuel tank spraying fuel everywhere.
Your ground impact could be low but the forces exerted by a 380 RPM rotor hitting the ground is huge.

Can you share your stats of post fire accidents per type with us ?

I think I posted the spreadsheet on microlighters somewhere in 2008 (I stopped updating it after that) and I can't remember under what topic so a search will be necessary. As for trying to determine the stats by make or model it's a waste of time unless you know the exact number of flying hours by type. If you don't, all you will establish is that the most popular models have the most accidents. Just like Toyota Carolla's and VW Golfs Not going down that Statistics 101 road again
T-Bird in every gyro I've ever seen the fuel tank is situated for'ard of the mast Do you have any details of the accident you refer to where the Magni's mast split the tank causing a fire? It's the first I've heard of and I'm only aware of one "non impact" i.e ground accident that resulted in a fire and that was a Sycamore which rolled whilst taxiing too quickly about 10 years ago. The pilot suffered only minor injuries.

[Wagtail]

Guys, please understand that this forum is not the official SAGPA "circular", but in the same light I respect the fact that a lot of SAGPA members are active on this forum. I am the one who said we need to consult and debate a matter within the SAGPA Committee first before making or releasing statements into the general Gyro community, but I think under the circumstances I will be excused for not following this procedure.

- It is not true that the SAGPA Committee is not doing anything to improve the situation. I will apologise for not being faster on this matter, but a lot has been done in the background so far.

- I strongly feel that it is not necessary for the members to "demand" action from the SAGPA Committee, we are actually part of the gyro community and it is definitely in our best interest as well to find answers.

- SAGPA and myself, Johan von Ludwig in person, will help anybody who wants to present a Mod application to CAA. I know the statement about red tape and years of waiting is not meant as such, but honestly I have presented many Mods at CAA and if the process is followed, the documentation filled in correctly and ACCURATELY and the justification is presented with facts and proof then the process is painless and fast. I am willing to go as far as stating that I can accept a challenge to present and obtain Temporary Mod approval for a Safety improvement within 48 hours IF the paperwork is complete and presented correctly.

- Last comment and request from SAGPA Technical side, PLEASE do not go and install or modify any systems on a gyro. If you have a good idea and you believe it is safe, good and functional, please just present it in the form of a formal Mod application and follow the process. Surely it is not too much to ask to stay out of the air for the few days it will take to apply and obtain Temporary Mod approval?
PLEASE understand that if CAA's intent is to limit our flying or to eliminate General Aviation there are much easier, faster and more effective means in place so they really do not need to take up their own time "to drag the process out". CAA actually have competent people and competent Engineers who can assist and who actually want to assist, this is the very fibre of the NTCA Mod application process. The Engineer MIGHT just ask one relevant question which can help.

Now, it appears as if this forum and this particular debate is just about the best representation of ideas on offer at present. I am willing to give the process some energy and see where it can take us.
If I may present the "problem statement" with a bit of detail to enable "non gyro" guys to follow and to contribute.
Our age-old statement for which I will probably again take some flak : " Aviation is all about compromise ", never forget this and the choice is where to compromise...

- Most of our present day gyro's are Pusher designs and by their very nature it follows that the fuel tank will be in front and fairly close to the engine. Can we change this...not likely, it is inherent of the pusher design.

- Most of our gyros are powered by ROTAX 914 Turbo engines and the exhaust and turbine housing is unshielded and open.

- The most probable reason for the start of the fire is the fact that the Auto ignition temperature of MOGAS ( and even AVGAS ) is in the order of 240 - 300 degrees C. The exhaust pipes and the exhaust housing is in the order of 650 - 800 degrees C when the Rotax is under about 28-35 " MAP. In pain English, if the Petrol falls onto the exhaust or the turbine housing AND the correct air fuel range ( Flammable limits or even Explosive limits ) are reached then the fuel vapour will ignite spontaneously. In flight we get away with minor leaks because the air flow is so high and turbulent that the Flammable limits are not easily reached. Once the gyro is on the ground and the prop is no longer producing serious airflow, the situation is Code Red. Any spillage will have a very high probability to ignite.

- We have investigated the suitability of something like the Fireball. The concept is sound, it will displace O2 and that without O2 a fire ( in the general sense of the word ) is not possible. BUT, the Fireball contains a "blasting cap".....can go off accidentally and it is not rated for outdoor use. I am not saying it will not work , I am just stating the facts so we can work on them. There are other products available which we have used in the Chemical Industry which can actually stop a Hydrogen, Methane or even Coal dust explosion, so what I am saying is it can be done....

- Products like DETO-STOP or any of the other honeycomb type products which goes into a fuel tank has mainly 2 functions:

- remove energy from a flame front which in turn will stop a detonation front from developing ( stop an explosion inside a tank ), this is not what is happening with our gyros at this stage.

- avoid serious "sloshing" which in turn will reduce the "speed" of the spill. There are products available ( looks like a cross between a honeycomb and a sponge ) which will "soak up" the fuel and really release it so slowly that a 80 litre volume will burn like a decent camp fire.
Installing any of these type of products will still involve paperwork, not to complicate the process, just to make sure the correct thing is done correctly...

I have had discussions with Braam and he is in the process to see if there is any way in which we can obtain the "old" safety belt buckles from SAA to make them available for installation into our NTCA gyros.

If I may go "off the record" and suggest a few more ideas.

First investigate how serious the different "types" of fires really are, what I mean, lets spend some money and simulate a 80 litre fuel tank falling, breaking and catching fire. Then lets take the scenario of the fuel hose splitting open, how serious is that fire really...can we improve the situation a bit by:

- installing a flow orifice in the line to reduce the max flowrate, move fuel pressure regulator away from engine to remove high flow pipes from engine compartment???

Please keep on contributing in a constructive manner.

Regards
Johan von Ludwig