Take off from runway intersections

[t-bird]

Hi guys

Please try not to take off from runway intersections and give us bad name.

Or atleast make sure you have more than enough runway

From AVCOM

STUPIDITY
by Chernoch » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:04 pm
On Tuedsay the 12th I was standing outside the Flying school at Springs (FASI) at midday, A Black Gyro taxied out down Runway32 and then Lined up at the Intersection of 32/03.
You then procceded to TAKE OFF with 800 Metres of good runway behind you. You only cleared the trees by about 20 foot.(Runway 03). All you needed to go wrong was One Magneto to fail and this topic would be Gyro down at Springs.
Have you never been taught that RUNWAY BEHIND YOU; ALTITUDE ABOUVE YOU & FUEL IN THE BOWSER are the 3 most useless things to a Aviator ?.
I am tired of 18 to 20 pages in this fuorum saying what a GOOD pilot he was when the decision to fly or the action that caused the fatality is due to Stupidity and or Testosterone.
No Meeting/Flight is that important that you have to take chances and put your life at risk.
If you want to play Russian Roulete please dont use a perfectly servicable aircraft.

Now it is time to climb off my Soap box.

[gertcoetzee]

I know I am wrong, so shoot me, but I will do the same. The yellow line is the >750m the gyro left behind him (see the first picture).

Picture 2.jpg (61.41 KiB) Viewed 2378 times

To proof that I have a good reason to know I am wrong, here follows. (see the second picture) At a FASD fly-in some time ago, the ATC got all the blikkies to backtrack on 02 (a kilo or so), then they would take off from 02. This process was repeated one by one, whilst Dirk and myself with our trikes (503s) got hotter and hotter. So once we got the chance, we told ATC that we will take off from the "sliproad" intersection ahead of the blik now doing the lengthy backtrack. I took off, and Dirk followed (with more than a km behind us). Soon after Dirk took off I heard him calmly telling ATC that he has an enjin out, and had to land in the rougher bits between some cows, who enjoyed the fine execution of an emergency landing more than any of the spectators at the runway would have, being blik pilots and all.

Picture 4.jpg (38.75 KiB) Viewed 2378 times

[t-bird]

Hi Gert it is not about the gyros capabilities but about the impression we create. Gyros take a while to warm up, take your time and taxi to holding point. My wheel bearing seized on take off at Brits and I used the whole runway and just made it across the fence

[RV4ker (RIP)]

I agree and disagree..

Agree that runway ahead is a good idea. There is usually no reason for intersection take off.

Disagree - if you used to having 300m runway then 900m may be overkill? If you have balanced field length from intersection by all means. Ever been to Upington....

IMHO it Personal pref and as long as the pilot is aware of the risks I don't have a problem with intersection take offs. (I did one today at FAVB maybe 300m behind me, but wind was 22kts down the runway, so gave power and was maybe 200-300ft by time I got to thresh and there are no obstructions anywhere in sigth in case of forced lob. Brits does not allow intersection take off's so I don't do them, also forced lob teretory is FEW, so my reasoning is 2 fold. Rules and self preservation. Simple as that, but I have on occasion flown there with wind up near 25kts and been airborne in 10m from thresh at Brits where intersection would have had me higher than a normal take off. Just playing devils advocate. Intersection take offs are fact of aviation and sometimes useful. JUST BE AWARE OF THE RISKS....

Flying has plenty and one way to reduce them is to use all the runway. Not that you have to, but it is safer... (So is not flying at all some would argue )

[t-bird]

The problem that you have at springs is dat you usually have different aircraft types in the circuit. We were 4 aircraft in the circuit on my last visit,a glider,rv,cubby and gyro. It is hard enough keeping track of all the aircraft without any non standard take offs. You're take off could affect other aircraft.

[FO Gyro]

I've been following the thread on Avcom. My opinion: I don't see any problem with taking off half way down a 1 600m runway. He still had 800m left, which is plenty for a gyro. He could even do a 180 turn after experiencing an engine failure, and safely land back on the runway. The 20ft over the upwind end of the threshold maybe wasn't the cleverest though. That part I wouldn't agree with.

Someone on the Avcom thread tried to say that if he had an engine failure, he could easily convert 90mph into 300ft straight away. Today, in the cruise, I tried closing the power quickly, at 90 mph, and then tried to pull up. With a couple of seconds, your airspeed is right down to 60mph, and you don't gain any altitude, such is the drag from a gyro. Anyone thinking they can convert speed to height in a gyro, is sadly mistaken. Best to keep this in mind when flying low, and your options are that much reduced.

[MAGNIficent]

Callie,
Very valid and important point you made, I support you 100%.
Let us stick to the safe flying RULES.

[Alkemac]

Well, I got fed up on Saturday...

Made my downwind call, turn onto base, and see there is someone who has turned off the slip road onto the main runway intersection, and then takes off in front of me...

[Ou Man]

Why don’t you do what a crop sprayer once did at DF Malan. He was cleared to taxi to the holding point. According to him it would take him to long to get there. He took off and flew along the taxi way to the holding point. Did his checks, took the bla-bla from the tower and was cleared to take off!!

[Condor]

I think in the interest of safety, good airmanship and many other reasons, we should discourage this type of flying.

Should you request ATC for an intersection take-off and they clear you, different story.

I did not recently study all the presribed actions, law etc, but what does the rules tell us about "short take-offs"?

What does the instructors teach their students?

[Alkemac]

We were knocked out of the sky - pilot
2010-10-29 09:51

Erika Gibson, Beeld

Pretoria - The flight instructor in one of the two planes involved in a collision at Wonderboom airport outside Pretoria this week has told how he only realised there was an aircraft above them when he heard a hard knock from behind.

"I realised that it was another plane when it flew past us and ploughed into the ground further ahead."

This is what Johan van Niekerk, 49, said on Thursday in the intensive care unit at Netcare Montana hospital.

Van Niekerk and Yves-Pascal Watelnainwa, a Congolese citizen, took off from the Kitty Hawk airfield east of Pretoria and were doing touch and go landings at Wonderboom airport in a Jabiru two-seater aircraft when they were hit by the Piper Cherokee.

Learner pilot

Apparently a learner pilot was doing his solo flight and landing in the Piper.

According to Van Niekerk, Watelnainwa needed only three more flight hours to obtain his commercial pilot’s licence.

"We were taking off and were probably about 50ft above the ground when the other plane knocked us.

"We knew there was a plane behind us, but according to the information we received, he was quite far behind us.

"We had permission to continue with the touch and go circuits.

"We didn't receive any radio warnings that the other plane was just about on top of us. We also didn't receive instructions for an evasion plan.

Injuries

"I thought my last day on earth had arrived. It was the force with which we landed that caused my injuries."

Van Niekerk was able to crawl out of the broken plane by himself.

He saw his student only briefly after the accident, sitting on the grass some distance away.

"We don't know where he is and I don't even know if he's alright," Van Niekerk said.

Van Niekerk's breast bone and pelvis were fractured, and one spinal vertebrae burst. He will undergo an operation on Friday morning to treat the spinal injury by fixing the vertebrae on both sides in place with screws.

[FO Gyro]

How is the Wonderboom accident related to the use of intersection take-off's?

[Alkemac]

The principle in both cases is the same... one plane landing, while another is taking off...earlier I mentioned what happened to me while landing on the threshold, while someone was taking off further up the runway..

The result could have been the same...

[Thebushpilot]

I have to agree with FO Gyro, what difference does it make if your aircraft meets the performance required.

At the end of the day it all boils down to airmanship & judgement. The old adage of never taking off with runway behind you and fuel tanks that aren't full is absolute nonsense, lately there are in fact more incidents from aircraft not making use of minimum runway occupancy and ground lookout than taking off on a shortened runway.

Aviation today is suffering from the lack of airmanship and judgement, both recreational aviation and commercial aviation. If your aircraft can meet the required performance for a shortened takeoff then why not go ahead and do it, just remember it will be different with a passenger, if you're not comfortable then don't, but do not criticize someone who does.

Let FO Gyro explain to you what they do in SAA, they don't fill the tanks and they make use of intersection take off's all time..........am I correct?

[FO Gyro]

Spot on!