Kittyhawk Gyro forced landing

[mak]

Len I like your idea of limited power training to try and simulate situations like this.
On the density altitude, I read somewhere, I think in the Jim Davis book, that the influence of moisture is almost neglitable on density altitude. Is this correct?
A nice feature / safety feature of the new technology glass cocpits is it can indicate your density altitude.
Wonder if you don't get a hand held instrument that can do the same for us with gyros without the glass cocpit or we just need to memorize the formula or a short calculation method like Francois suggested.

[Gyronaut]

Len I like your idea of limited power training to try and simulate situations like this.
On the density altitude, I read somewhere, ... that the influence of moisture is almost neglitable on density altitude. Is this correct?

Somehow I doubt that the mighty Jim Davis would have said that. Moisture has a HUGE impact on Density Altitude calculations.

Let me give you an example

Air Temp (DegC) 30
Dewpoint (DegC) 0 (The dew point is the temperature to which a given parcel of air must be cooled, at constant barometric pressure, for water vapor to condense into water; If the humidity is 100% then this will equal the ambient temperature. If there is no moisture then 0)
Altitude (ft) 5 300'
QNH(hPa) 1014

This results in a density altitude of 8 230: absolute Pressure 834.3; Relative density 78.05%

Change the dewpoint to 2 degrees below the ambient temperature (i.e. almost 100% humidity) and see what happens:-

Air Temp (DegC) 30
Dewpoint (DegC) 28
Altitude (ft) 5 300'
QNH(hPa) 1014

This results in a density altitude of 8 697: absolute Pressure 834.3; Relative density 76.93%

The difference is almost 500' !

Wonder if you don't get a hand held instrument that can do the same for us

Get yourself an iPhone and load the free app "Pilot Wizz" onto it, it has a neat density altitude calculator amongst other really lekka things (including a log book)!

Len

PS: I don't sell iPhones, just love mine - heck, it even has a very accurate magnetic compass in it!

[peterb]

Hi Len / Mak go check this out. The only problem is they dont ship outside the USA.

http://www.kestrelmeters.com/Kestrel-Me ... /index.cat

This link helps you select the meter suiting your requirements
http://www.nkhome.com/ww/selector/

[FlyingDoc]

Mak,
I replaced the Altimeter that came with my Xenon with an ALT-3 dgital from MGL. Very easy to install and not only does it give you a digital readout of the altitude, but VSI and Density Altitude and some other things as well.
It was not that expensive either. Very useful.
Alan

[peterb]

Mak,
I replaced the Altimeter that came with my Xenon with an ALT-3 dgital from MGL. Very easy to install and not only does it give you a digital readout of the altitude, but VSI and Density Altitude and some other things as well.
It was not that expensive either. Very useful.
Alan

Hi Alan I appologize for Gate Crashing. I took the liberty and followed up on the lead you gave MAK. (ALT-3 Digital) I found a supplier in Gauteng and at a very reasonable Price I think. I most certainly am going to look at this! An extemely handy tool for a Gyro.
Thanks for the Lead
Peter

[FlyingDoc]

Peterb,
No problem. I deal directly with MGL in Stellenbosch. They overnight the parcel. I have only had the best service from them.
Ria is very helpful.
Alan

[mak]

Len I had a look again at the Jim Davis book and he doesn't take humidity into consideration, as I believe most aviation density altitude charts also don't consider humidity, they only take pressure altitude and correct it for temperature, but they all state that this is only the simplified method and is only 90 - 95% correct. Suppose you can use this method in emergencies, when you don't know the relative humidity or dewpoint and add 10% or your own safety margin. Obviously doing it as per Len's calculation makes it 100%.

Alan thanks for the advice, but fortunately our Xenon is fitted with the MGL Odyssey and I won't bother installing it in our other gyro as it might just gather dust.

Does anybody know if the fancy instruments like the MGL & others take humidity into consideration or only correct pressure altitude for temperature. I dont want to rely on my MGL and find out later that it is 10% out and I need to allow for this.

[Conrad]

In plane afrikaans vir n' non-gyro flyer.
Kan iemand verduidelik hoekom het dit gebeur?

[FlyingDoc]

Mak,
This is the equation that is in the ALT-3 and should imagine it is also in the Odessy. Only ambient temperatue and the pressure altitude are used.

Da = Density altitude
Pa = Pressure altitude
T = ambient temperature in degrees C
Ts= 15 - 0.0019812 * pressure altitude (ft)
Da = Pa + 118.6 * (T-Ts)

Density altitude is a perceived altitude that pertains to your current altitude and temperature (and to a lesser extent on
your current moisture content of the air). Density altitude is relevant for performance calculations of your aircraft. Density
altitude affects the performance of your engine, propeller and airfoils. The most noticeable affects of density altitude are
length of take-off and landing runs and the ability of your aircraft to carry weight. There are several methods to calculate
density altitude, all result in readings that are very close to each other. We decided to implement a popular formula that is
often used by pilots to calculate density altitude at their location.

Hope this helps.
Alan

[Johannes Cronje]

Gentlemen

Much has been debated and deliberated on this topic but have we arrived at an answer to the question: “Why did this happen?”

If I was looking for a gyro and was considering buying a Sycamore must I scrap it off my list? The obvious answer is no, but on two occasions these machines stopped flying for no apparent or obvious reason.

Do you need to do an upgrade on the main rotor to safely and with confidence fly at altitude?

Must the weight in a Sycamore be limited for safety sake?

If I am new to flying gyro’s I don’t necessarily want to over expose myself to risks such as a smaller flying envelope such as say the Magni or Ela, is that reason enough to pay more and not buy a Sycamore.

Please, this is not a debate on this gyro is better than that gyro but more along the lines of explaining the designed flying envelopes and that which we all need to be aware of.

If I am correct the incident occurred simply because the machine stopped flying, weather it be a case of not enough power or not enough lift or too a heavy machine.

Is there a simple answer to this one?

Johannes

[Low Level]

but on two occasions these machines stopped flying for no apparent or obvious reason.

Hi Johannes. When was the other occasion ?

[FO Gyro]

For some reason, comparing gyro's can be a sensitive subject to some, but at the end of the day, we need to discuss safety, to try and prevent the same thing happening again.

The bottom line is that the Sycamore is a heavy gyro, if powered by a Rotax 914. I speak as a previous owner of one. I can't comment on it's performance with the Sabaru as I don't know. My gyro weighed around 380kg, whereas the Magni's weigh around 280kg, and the MT-03 and ELA are around 260kg. The later Sycamore's were slightly lighter, but I'm sure they would't be less than 350kg. The nett effect is that a MT-03/ELA/Magni with a passenger performs very much the same as a Sycamore when flying solo. My MT-03 at the highveld, on a hot summer's day, 1 up, I can fly very easily at a low power setting of around 4500RPM, whereas my previous Sycamore needed 4900-5000RPM to keep flying. Anything less and the speed dropped off. The power available to climb out of trouble in a Sycamore is thus much reduced (for a Rotax 914).

Again, I can't comment on the performance that some Sycamore owners have with the longer rotors. This would help their climb rate, but would make their machines slightly slower in the cruise. Hopefully some Sycamore owners on this forum that have the longer rotors could fill us in with the performance of their machines. Gyro instructor, Len Klopper flies a Sycamore from Fisantekraal, and is happy with it's performance at the coast.

Two up, on a hot summer's day, at a pressure altitude of 5500ft, with a density alitude getting close to 8000ft, a different kettle of fish methinks.

[Gyronaut]

I agree with FO that comparing gyro's is a sensitive area and I don't wanna go there. I say again that I am a Gyronaut first, a Sycamore owner second, and that I have more hours on Magni's than anything else. I think the MT's and the Ela's are great machines and FO is quite correct, they do weigh about 80kgs less than a Sycamore with the doors on. This is equivalent to a 3rd passenger! The longer rotor does generate more lift - Fact. It also obviously creates more drag and I have said before that in ZU-RDR I run at approximately 200RPM more than my mates in their Magni's when we cruise long distance carrying the same weight on board. (yes I do have some mates before some smart-ass comments!)

My wife's lovely Toyota Fortuner has serious problems in handling on a corrugated dirt road. Toyota says its the tyres, people in the know say its the bakkie chassis that the thing is built on. Does that make all Toyota's bad? No.

Similarly, we cannot discount all Sycamores because of an incident such as the one Francois suffered. Remember that Francois and his passenger climbed out after takeoff quite normally at +500ft per minute flew for quite a while and then ran out of ideas. Also his machine has a composite rotor and not an aluminium extruded rotor so immediately we aren't singing from the same hymn sheet. I know him personally and have high regard for his ability but you have to accept that he is a low time pilot. By his own admission, this was the first time since his training that he had flown in summer conditions with a heavy passenger and full tanks and he also admits that he wasn't planning on flying with pax that day at all. He also admits that his speed management may have suffered in the heat of the moment and mentioned that the gyro 'dropped' the last few feet which can only be as a result of inadequate speed. Throw all these things in the pot, stir it around well and make up your own mind. The fact is that the Magni's/MT's/Ela's are lighter and therefore give you a bigger envelope to operate in and therefore a better margin for error when it comes to being on the limit - the only trade-off may be less stability than the heavier machine in sever turbulence. Its always swings and roundabouts.

Having said that, don't think for one second that no Magni's/MT's/Ela's have ever suffered from CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) as a result of weight/conditions and been forced to put down. For example, a well known celebrity is notorious for having had a bird strike... while the bird was still in the tree.

So, Johannes, I know that doesn't answer you question because - quite simply - there isn't a simple, single answer to your question. Fly the machine you are considering, make sure it suites your needs and buy it. You will notice that several owners have owned several different types of machines and dont think you will buy one machine today and it will last you forever. You will probably out grow it in time, find you want to use it for different reasons than you originally thought, new products come on the market... etc etc.

I wanted an enclosed machine (or my wife wouldn't fly with me). Now I have bought a new side-by-side enclosed machine because she doesn't want to sit behind me anymore. 4 years ago, when I chose my Sycamore the MT Calidus; Xenon; Magni M24 wasn't available. Still a tough decision between them but finally, if you do your homework, take the decision, make the most of your investment and most of all... ENJOY!

Never forget that this is RECREATIONAL flying, we do it for fun. If we aren't having fun or we are exposing ourselves to unnecessary risk, then don't do it!

Fly safe and fly lekka

Len

PS, two up at 5 500' on a hot day with full tanks a Robinson R22 can't get off the ground either. Still a lekka little heli!

[franss]

Hi Len / Mak go check this out. The only problem is they dont ship outside the USA.

http://www.kestrelmeters.com/Kestrel-Me ... /index.cat

This link helps you select the meter suiting your requirements
http://www.nkhome.com/ww/selector/

I would be very interested in an instrument with the following specs:
pocket sized handheld instrument with
Built in anomometer(wind speed and direction)
hygrometer
barometer
Thermometer
gps(ability to send SOS and coordinates via VHF?)
cellphone

Inputs
Aircraft parameters(weight .mauw)Set up once for your aircaft
Engine (hp).
Rotor lenght
Prop pitch
Variables
Passengers and weight with additional payload(camersas etc.)
runway conditions(tarmac,dirt,gras) with maybe a level of between 1-10 for degree of roll resistance)
Outputs
Point down runway and press button.
Instrument calculates:
DA
Runway distance required
Mauw
Power safety margin (maybe expressed in terms of % of total weight)
Come on all you clever aviators.Now is the chance to give your inputs for this wunderfull new instrument to be developed.This is your wishlist.
franss
Proud Sycamore Owner
ZU-CCN
Rhino

[Vertical Tango]

Such an instrument would never be viable for an electronic concern. Your requirements might be very real and it makes sense. For an electronic company, it would gather dust on shelves as it woud far too complicated to operate for the average pilot. It would become another gadget that no one has the time to read the manual to operate successfully. Cannot recuperate your design outlay.