Cross wind landings

[Low Level]

Question to the more experienced guys.......or the rest who wants to speculate.

At Rhino, lots of landing happens where hangars and seriously large bluegum trees sometimes disguise the wind. We have two windsocks about 100m apart. The only time they speak the same language, is when there is absolutely no wind, and they dangle around their posts. Usually they are like the Douglas Green ad, two different directions.

Now, twice it happenned to me. On final flare, very low on speed and about 1 meter above the ground, I suddenly get this gust from the side, that sets me within the blink of an eye, about 45 dgrees on the runway. Ya, ya, I know, don't blink.

Now the question: Do I give power to get rudder authority and try to correct the gyro. The risk being gaining speed and not straighten the gyro with the result hit the ground at speed, but skew.

....or, flare violently to land absolutely with zero ground roll 45 degrees to the runway ?

[Sukkelaar]

Can I speculate?

One of two things can be done :

a: Chop down those bluegums

b: Move the windsocks

Regards

Sukkelaar

[Vertical Tango]

I think that operating regularly at that airfield will force you to start practicing higher speed landings. This is a bit more like a normal fixed wing or trike lands, i.e. more forward speed when the wheels touch down to have better rudder authority. At least you know in advance that the conditions might be like that having the wind socks in all directions. Therefore you can expect it. Train in a calm day to land faster and faster (up to a limit !) to master the technique. This is what I would do. I discussed this problem already with a different runway totally hidden behind trees (generally no wind on the ground), but the approach being above the trees is in different conditions. A soon as you pass the "transition layer", the aircraft drops suddenly. The cure is to approach faster. Be careful not to touch down misaligned.

[t-bird]

1 meter above the ground without groundspeed is a bit high you need to reduce that to 1/2meter and less

Depends on your landing technique

When I started training on Gyro’s the landing was a steep approach and land on the numbers not ½ meter in front or behind.

Got quite good at it , but learned some bad habits
- chopping power when too high which needs to be compensated with rudder input
- descending too rapidly then apply almost full power just before the flare and cut it after touchdown.

If you have gusty conditions your workload will increase a lot.

After flying with an instructor at another school I went back to the more conservative approach to landing.

Come it at 55 -60 mph not too steep

Adjust height with throttle and speed with stick

Fly parallel to runway coming back on throttle and stick until she settles.

This will make your workload a lot less and you will have forward speed if you have to do a go around.

You will also have more time to react to gusts and crosswinds because of the reduced work load and increased forward speed.

You can have a very flat approach on Rhino - no Obstacles on finals

[saraf]

I recommend you go to an instructor and get some extra cross wind training.

[t-bird]

Kom nou Eben jy kan 'n beter antwoord as dit gee

[Learjet]

I agree with SARAF.

Quite a number of gyro accidents are attributable to landing incidents (crosswind gusts, pilot control input errors etc) and Low Level I think you are to be complimented for identifying and acknowledging that certain prevailing conditions at Rhino are "catching" you on occasion, resulting in a misaligned landing or two. Now to fix it...

All the tips here are good and well - but SARAF is spot on. Do few circuits with an instructor who can refresh & take you through the appropriate crosswind / gusty approach and landing techniques and you will have Rhino crosswind landings greased in no time at all.

[saraf]

To many low time pilots that teach themselfs bad habbits and then they never go back to there instructor for consolidation training. Try to fix the problem themself and end up upside down that could have been avoided by getting 1h of extra training. An R200 000-00 event that can be avoided by R600-00 of instruction.

[Low Level]

Thanks guys. My problem is not crosswind landings as such. If there is crosswinds, one tends to expect surprises.

This one time we came in with no wind at all. The sock was hanging on the the pole, no crabbing, nothing. The moment I started to flare I got this gust from the side that pushed the gyro at an angle to the runway. There was no time to try and correct, therefore I had to flare and land. Fortunately everything ended well, but I got quite a scare.

Big Mac came in after me with the Thunderbird. I watched his whole approach, thinking I missed something. His whole approach was straight, no crosswinds. Upon landing the same thing happenned to him. He also had quite a spectacular landing also with a good outcome.

As I said, in the blink of an eye.

Afterwards I started to speculate about what would be the best action.

[t-bird]

Different instructors use different landing methods, the same as per the take off.

I have flown with 5 gyro instructors and there was definitely 2 schools of landing.

The steep decent which is according to them how you should land a gyro.

The second method is a more gradual decent with more forward speed almost the same as a 3-axis.

I can do both but per my speculation the second method is safer.

There is also the vertical descent and land, but don’t try this without an instructor

[Gyronaut]

Treading very carefully on dangerous ground here... My 2zim cents worth is this:

I have to agree with Eben and Dave since different circumstances require different reactions and inputs; Generally though I would say that it would be a big mistake to add power when things go wobbly on landing. (Except if its a go-round to try again) If you find that crosswind gust gets you, Lean into the direction of nose yaw (will usually be into wind) with the stick; use as much opposite pedal as you have available to keep it as straight as possible and land with as little forward speed as possible. Even if it looks inelegant and across the runway (so what) you have a huge airbrake above you, so use it and put the machine down with enough flare to stop any forward motion.

I'd rather get out, turn it back onto the runway line, get back in and taxi home than pick up broken pieces down the runway. Adding power just increases your motion and throws torque effect into the mix just for fun... and thus simply results in potentially taking you further into the crash (in my humble opinion).

Fly Safe!

Rgds

Len

[THI]

How long is the runway at Rhino? How about landing a bit deeper? We have a similar problem at Swellendam. Just before the threshold the is a bump in the field. You can hardly see it, and if you come in for a landing you suddenly get downdraft.

I know landing deeper is not the preferred choice…

[Tumbleweed]

We're also blessed with multiple wind factors on a final approach.

Best advise I got what not being hell bent on banging down on the numbers but start with flying 1 metre over the whole strip comfortably above the stall without touching down. Vary between steep and low/ fast approaches and you'll realise how much time and oppertunities you have to land safely.

In k@k conditions wait for the right oppertinity. No one's going to be bothered if you use back track a further 30 metres.

[Low Level]

Thanx for a nice answer Len, that was my thought as well.

Best advise I got what not being hell bent on banging down on the numbers but start with flying 1 metre over the whole strip comfortably above the stall without touching down.

I tend to do the same when the wind is playing havoc. When the gyro is settled nicely, wherever on the runway - the landing goes down well. The nice thing about it is - adding to what t-bird said - you have rudder authority, and a go-around is on the cards without hassles if you have a shallow approach with speed.


............it's that bloody gust on final flare when there is almost no rudder authority.

How long is the runway at Rhino? How about landing a bit deeper?

More than enough, and I don't have a problem with landing deeper. Missed the turn off in the middle of the runway many times. The problem is with going deeper, it doesn't get better, it gets different...........still talking landing.

[t-bird]

I have visited Rhino on Saturday at 16h00. Not a lot going on besides the Jabi’s doing circuits.

It was great to see a proper flying school for a change at Rhino.

Well done Dave Naude