Hi Splinter
Great Idea, but may I ask a question? Is it not the responsibility of the Manufacturer, Agents to sort out the problem or come up with a solution for the problem, like Mark indicated in his post.
Why do you as a owner of a certain machine pay for the R and D?
Just a question!!! I think you have a great idea and Johan I am sure will be able to assist you guy's.
Gyros burning after impact?
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Re: Gyros burning after impact?
Good instructors always speak well about all flying machines.
Bad instructors speak badly about machines they cannot fly.
Bad instructors speak badly about machines they cannot fly.
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
That question is debatable. Owners will say they are not satisfied and manufactures will say they comply to requirements. If there is enough pressure on a manufacturer they will look in to it I`m sure, but personally I feel that it will take years to get anything out of them and I am no longer willing to take that risk over such a long period of time. You are going to pay for the upgrade to your machine anyway, so why not just do it ourselves and get the exact product and outcome we want. Proudly South African I say, lets lead the way. We have got guys like Johan, lets use them NOW!saraf wrote:Hi Splinter
Great Idea, but may I ask a question? Is it not the responsibility of the Manufacturer, Agents to sort out the problem or come up with a solution for the problem, like Mark indicated in his post.
Why do you as a owner of a certain machine pay for the R and D?
Just a question!!! I think you have a great idea and Johan I am sure will be able to assist you guy's.
Lower, Lower ...........
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
Good morning,
I can report back that this action has not started to slow down. So far :
- we have obtained a "fire blanket" ( R 546.89 )
- Richard Herber helped me out while I was in Cape town and he has collected 3 m^2 of a special "heat shield" mat which we are using to insulate exhaust systems ( R ?? estimate around R 1000 )
- Braam is making contact with various persons at SAA and SAAF to obtain a "closer" location to perform the actual "drop" tests. I can arrange to do it on the SASOL Fire training site, but that is in Sasolburg.
- Fibre glass man has come back to us and we are looking at around R 500 - R 1000 per "container".
As far as cost is concerned I am prepared to throw my time and travel expence in at R 0.0 cost, so teh only cost would be the actual cost of fuel ( about 10 litres per drop ) and the actual material cost. We will try and see if it is possible to get the testing facility at R 0 charge but that is not so easy.
As far as who is to pay for this.....I agree that it is the manufacturers who are responsible for R&D, but in the real world i don't think they will.....I cannot speak on behalf of SAGPA but I do think that if there is some private contributions then it will become a lot easier to "ask" SAGPA Committe....Yes I am on the Committe, but it is not for me to decide how we allocate funds.
I think with a series of tests like the above we might learn something which can be usefull on any or all of the current gyro's and not just on a specific model or make.
I have not drawn up a budget simply because we do not have all the numbers, but so far if we just want to test the effect of "enclosing" the fuel tank with something like a fire balnket ( not to protect the tank from fire, just a strong material to keep the fuel inside and to avoid a sudden splash during rapture ) then I think we are looking at numbers around R 5000 - R 10 000.
If we ant to start experimenting with things like the "Fireball" or "gas release",or bladder tanks then teh costing will need to be performed a bit more a accurately.
Regards
JvL
I can report back that this action has not started to slow down. So far :
- we have obtained a "fire blanket" ( R 546.89 )
- Richard Herber helped me out while I was in Cape town and he has collected 3 m^2 of a special "heat shield" mat which we are using to insulate exhaust systems ( R ?? estimate around R 1000 )
- Braam is making contact with various persons at SAA and SAAF to obtain a "closer" location to perform the actual "drop" tests. I can arrange to do it on the SASOL Fire training site, but that is in Sasolburg.
- Fibre glass man has come back to us and we are looking at around R 500 - R 1000 per "container".
As far as cost is concerned I am prepared to throw my time and travel expence in at R 0.0 cost, so teh only cost would be the actual cost of fuel ( about 10 litres per drop ) and the actual material cost. We will try and see if it is possible to get the testing facility at R 0 charge but that is not so easy.
As far as who is to pay for this.....I agree that it is the manufacturers who are responsible for R&D, but in the real world i don't think they will.....I cannot speak on behalf of SAGPA but I do think that if there is some private contributions then it will become a lot easier to "ask" SAGPA Committe....Yes I am on the Committe, but it is not for me to decide how we allocate funds.
I think with a series of tests like the above we might learn something which can be usefull on any or all of the current gyro's and not just on a specific model or make.
I have not drawn up a budget simply because we do not have all the numbers, but so far if we just want to test the effect of "enclosing" the fuel tank with something like a fire balnket ( not to protect the tank from fire, just a strong material to keep the fuel inside and to avoid a sudden splash during rapture ) then I think we are looking at numbers around R 5000 - R 10 000.
If we ant to start experimenting with things like the "Fireball" or "gas release",or bladder tanks then teh costing will need to be performed a bit more a accurately.
Regards
JvL
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
With the greatest of respect, I don't believe it is the role of SAGPA to try and become the SABS, CSIR or Mythbusters-styled gyroplane industry research & development department. Robinson helicopters and Magni both seem to be taking the internal bladder route going forward - and I have no doubt that they both arrived at the same conclusion after considerable R&D investment and testing of alternatives like tank blankets etc beforehand. Why we would try to amateurishly reinvent the wheel with the few SAGPA pennies available is beyond me?
I'm as passionate and committed as anyone about bringing about improved gyro safety, but aviation safety research & development needs to be done properly, scientifically and (make no mistake) at considerable cost and expense. A self-styled "garlic & beetroot" approach using "home made" fuel tanks and utilising SAGPA funds doesn't get my vote. Sorry. The best role SAGPA / CAA can play is to address their concerns with the respective manufacturers (be it Boeing or ACME Gyros) because the reality is that the aircraft manufacturers are in the best position, knowledge and resource wise, to bring about improved safety of their own aircraft. Why? Because their sales & market share depends on it.
I'm as passionate and committed as anyone about bringing about improved gyro safety, but aviation safety research & development needs to be done properly, scientifically and (make no mistake) at considerable cost and expense. A self-styled "garlic & beetroot" approach using "home made" fuel tanks and utilising SAGPA funds doesn't get my vote. Sorry. The best role SAGPA / CAA can play is to address their concerns with the respective manufacturers (be it Boeing or ACME Gyros) because the reality is that the aircraft manufacturers are in the best position, knowledge and resource wise, to bring about improved safety of their own aircraft. Why? Because their sales & market share depends on it.
Dave Lehr
Magni Gyro M22 ZU-EPZ
“You're flying Buzz! No Woody we're falling in style!”
Magni Gyro M22 ZU-EPZ
“You're flying Buzz! No Woody we're falling in style!”
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
Hi Learjet
Think about the suggestion as Nomex suite on a tank.
Johan is suggesting a fire blanket that if it works could save lives.
It would not stopped the fire but would limit the explosion.
Is affordable
Would be easy to install on all gyro types
Weight would also not be an issue.
Spending R 10 000 of SAGPA’s money to test a workable solution that everybody would benefit is not too much to ask for .
Johan is prepared to do “As far as cost is concerned I am prepared to throw my time and travel expence in at R 0.0 cost”
Johan is also the best qualified person on gyros in South Africa .
I think that you are OUT OF LINE calling it “amateurishly” ,” A self-styled "garlic & beetroot" approach using "home made" fuel tanks”
Think about the suggestion as Nomex suite on a tank.
Johan is suggesting a fire blanket that if it works could save lives.
It would not stopped the fire but would limit the explosion.
Is affordable
Would be easy to install on all gyro types
Weight would also not be an issue.
Spending R 10 000 of SAGPA’s money to test a workable solution that everybody would benefit is not too much to ask for .
Johan is prepared to do “As far as cost is concerned I am prepared to throw my time and travel expence in at R 0.0 cost”
Johan is also the best qualified person on gyros in South Africa .
I think that you are OUT OF LINE calling it “amateurishly” ,” A self-styled "garlic & beetroot" approach using "home made" fuel tanks”
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Re: Gyros burning after impact?
Dave, I agree with you - as is evident from my earlier posts.
As a member of the SAGPA committee I will vote against funds being made available for R&D when the obligation to do so rests with the manufacturers. Establishing and enforcement of standards is CAA's duty, not ours.
Len
As a member of the SAGPA committee I will vote against funds being made available for R&D when the obligation to do so rests with the manufacturers. Establishing and enforcement of standards is CAA's duty, not ours.
Len
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
I agree with Dave on this, I don't think it's SAGPA or our responsibility to pay for R&D. Unfortunately some manufacturers refuse to accept / admit any problem with their design / construction. Ultimately it will be up to us as the consumers to make better informed decisions in the future when choosing / purchasing a new gyro. I applaud Magni for taking a step in the right direction.
I would have liked to see the stats of accidents world wide to try and identify a pattern / problem gyro's, not necessary just gyro types but maybe also certain models/year of manufacturing if necessary to identify risks. Although there has only been one reported fire on an Ela in South Africa, does that mean they are safe now or should I still consider replacing the fuel tank with a spill / burst proof one as well as self sealing fuel lines.
Has any analysis been done on the major causes of the post impact fires, is it the bursting of the fuel tank, or the bursting of fuel lines that causes the problems. If we only heat seal the exhaust and turbo will that not resolve the issue. Do we have different issues on the different gyro types. Should we begin to look for solutions per gyro type or are fire blankets around all different gyro fuel tanks sufficient? Are a fuel bladder inside an existing tank the best option or rather a completely new burst proof tank?
I also want to address the problem but first I need to understand what is the problems/danger with each gyro and what is the best possible solution for each problem.
Perhaps it is best to have a short seminar about this. Discuss all the possible general problems, then gyro type problems and get the agent's input on where they or the factory can and will assist and then the different gyro type owners can meet and discuss a collective way forward and the afterwards we can
or 
and then 
I would have liked to see the stats of accidents world wide to try and identify a pattern / problem gyro's, not necessary just gyro types but maybe also certain models/year of manufacturing if necessary to identify risks. Although there has only been one reported fire on an Ela in South Africa, does that mean they are safe now or should I still consider replacing the fuel tank with a spill / burst proof one as well as self sealing fuel lines.
Has any analysis been done on the major causes of the post impact fires, is it the bursting of the fuel tank, or the bursting of fuel lines that causes the problems. If we only heat seal the exhaust and turbo will that not resolve the issue. Do we have different issues on the different gyro types. Should we begin to look for solutions per gyro type or are fire blankets around all different gyro fuel tanks sufficient? Are a fuel bladder inside an existing tank the best option or rather a completely new burst proof tank?
I also want to address the problem but first I need to understand what is the problems/danger with each gyro and what is the best possible solution for each problem.
Perhaps it is best to have a short seminar about this. Discuss all the possible general problems, then gyro type problems and get the agent's input on where they or the factory can and will assist and then the different gyro type owners can meet and discuss a collective way forward and the afterwards we can
or and then www.altairaviation.co.za
HOME OF XENON & ZEN GYROCOPTER
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Re: Gyros burning after impact?
I am prepared to donate money to test a fire blanket.
It will benefit all Gyro types if it works.
If we can safe one life it will be worth it.
It will benefit all Gyro types if it works.
If we can safe one life it will be worth it.
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
T-Bird no disrespect was intended, and I'm certainly not dissuading anyone from doing their own personal experimentation. However, in the event that SAGPA decided to become a R&D sponsor, without the testing being done by a credible scientific institution or authority would the "mythbuster" results carry any weight with the CAA or the manufacturers? Sad but truet-bird wrote:I think that you are OUT OF LINE calling it “amateurishly” ,” A self-styled "garlic & beetroot" approach using "home made" fuel tanks”
Aero Tec Laborotaries in the USA specialises in this kind of R&D. Some interesting products and reading http://atlinc.com/index.html
Dave Lehr
Magni Gyro M22 ZU-EPZ
“You're flying Buzz! No Woody we're falling in style!”
Magni Gyro M22 ZU-EPZ
“You're flying Buzz! No Woody we're falling in style!”
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
Learjet
Don’t you think Johan Von Ludwig have the necessary qualifications ?
If you don’t know who he is have a look at http://wagtail.co.za/
He is highly rated over the world as an expert in Rotary aircraft.
He offered his time for FREE for a workable practical solution for all Gyros.
And YES his results will carry weight at the CAA.
And NO the manufactures would not agree because they want to sell you their new tanks.
It is a simple drop test with fibreglass tanks next to a flame which will determine if the fire mat works.
Is it really worth not testing it after all the fatalities ?
Don’t you think Johan Von Ludwig have the necessary qualifications ?
If you don’t know who he is have a look at http://wagtail.co.za/
He is highly rated over the world as an expert in Rotary aircraft.
He offered his time for FREE for a workable practical solution for all Gyros.
And YES his results will carry weight at the CAA.
And NO the manufactures would not agree because they want to sell you their new tanks.
It is a simple drop test with fibreglass tanks next to a flame which will determine if the fire mat works.
Is it really worth not testing it after all the fatalities ?
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
Please all the members who felt it was necessary to defend your ground with all your might, don't give yourself a heart attack. The suggestion was purely "maybe we could ask SAGPA for a small donation" and not "lets force them to pay"! Please relax you will not be asked for a donation or contribution to help make our sport safer.
This is obviously a project that a pilot should undertake himself if he wants a solution because its clear the guys in the gyro fraternity cant work together.
Must say that I will be paying my SAGPA fees when I get my license at the end of the week, not because I want to, or because I feel its the right thing to do but because I am forced to.
Its clear everybody wants a solution but no one except T-Bird and Johan v L is willing to put his hand in his pocket to find it. We are willing to let gyro pilots burn to death because we are not willing to spend a single rand. How many guys have burnt to death before only one manufacturer started R&D? How many are still going to die before the solution is rolled out into the industry. This is sickening. When the next pilot dies ask yourself if you could have contributed to saving his/her life.
T-bird I will contact you later
This is obviously a project that a pilot should undertake himself if he wants a solution because its clear the guys in the gyro fraternity cant work together.
Must say that I will be paying my SAGPA fees when I get my license at the end of the week, not because I want to, or because I feel its the right thing to do but because I am forced to.
Its clear everybody wants a solution but no one except T-Bird and Johan v L is willing to put his hand in his pocket to find it. We are willing to let gyro pilots burn to death because we are not willing to spend a single rand. How many guys have burnt to death before only one manufacturer started R&D? How many are still going to die before the solution is rolled out into the industry. This is sickening. When the next pilot dies ask yourself if you could have contributed to saving his/her life.
T-bird I will contact you later
Lower, Lower ...........
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Re: Gyros burning after impact?
I have an airworthy Sycamore (the manufacturer of which no longer exists) so I have more reason than most to support any tests that may ultimately make it safer. I also know Johan von Ludwig well and have no doubt about his capabilities. Both Dave and I have said we encourage anyone to continue doing what they think is best on the understanding that any mods must be approved by CAA. What we are also saying is that this does NOT absolve the manufacturers of a clear and definite obligation to implement world best-practice technology in order prevent future horror accidents.
As for my Magni M16 and my Magni M24, I expect the manufacturer/agent to direct me as to the best way to improve the tank system with mod approval done by them.
SAGPA's duty is to promote the sport of safe Gyro flying. If the majority of the committee feels it is prudent to spend some of the members fees on R&D then so be it. I say again that in my opinion it is not SAGPA's mandate to perform R&D or to enforce regulations but to support its members, SA's Gyro Pilots.
I also am unable to find anyone defending their ground with all their might or having heart attacks, but perhaps I missed something, just like Splinter and others may have missed where I said I support t-birds efforts on Thursday 23 June already.
Len
As for my Magni M16 and my Magni M24, I expect the manufacturer/agent to direct me as to the best way to improve the tank system with mod approval done by them.
SAGPA's duty is to promote the sport of safe Gyro flying. If the majority of the committee feels it is prudent to spend some of the members fees on R&D then so be it. I say again that in my opinion it is not SAGPA's mandate to perform R&D or to enforce regulations but to support its members, SA's Gyro Pilots.
I also am unable to find anyone defending their ground with all their might or having heart attacks, but perhaps I missed something, just like Splinter and others may have missed where I said I support t-birds efforts on Thursday 23 June already.
Len
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Re: Gyros burning after impact?
Dont know if these are of any use.
Gelvenor textiles manufacture fire resistant materials as well as aramid and sister company makes airbags http://www.geltex.co.za/
East Coast Moulders roto-mould fuel tanks and other devices (they would be very helpful) http://www.eastcoastmoulders.co.za/
Gelvenor textiles manufacture fire resistant materials as well as aramid and sister company makes airbags http://www.geltex.co.za/
East Coast Moulders roto-mould fuel tanks and other devices (they would be very helpful) http://www.eastcoastmoulders.co.za/
Centrifugal force in pure Physics does not exist, however this does not apply to Taxi drivers..
Re: Gyros burning after impact?
Well, what more can I say. I don't feel offended just a bit disappointed when our energy is seen as " A self-styled "garlic & beetroot" approach using "home made" fuel tanks.
I have no problem if the SAGPA members feel we must not waste our time on this effort.
I will step back and support anybody who wants to go ahead.
Regards
I have no problem if the SAGPA members feel we must not waste our time on this effort.
I will step back and support anybody who wants to go ahead.
Regards
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