Gyros burning after impact?

[saraf]

Dave ,

We need to sort the problem , like me and you have discussed in the past a couple of times.

T bird, Please I never mentioned any make or manufacturer, I personally know of all makes of gyros that has burned in accidents. So we are not here to discuss any make or model, we are here to sort our an issue with all gyro's as this can happen to
RAF , Magni, Ela, Xenon, MT 03 Calidus. Non of us is save form this. And if there is ways to prevent this in future we have to pursue these avenues as soon as possible.

We also need to know and ask Sagpa what was discussed on the last meeting regarding this issue and if post impact fires was ever discussed? Can the minutes be made public to the gyro community? I did ask for it , but was informed that it was a sensitive matter...............................Maybe I had a solution for the issue , but who are me and you as pilots to make suggestions.

[saraf]

HI T Bird

According to the photos that I saw this accident involved a ELA

Gyro Down @ Selanti Farm Baltimore

But lets leave this HERE, AND TRY TO SORT OUR THE PROBLEM TOGETHER TO MAKE FLYING GYROS SAVE FOR US AND OUR FRIENDS AND FRIENDS TO COME

[mak]

T-bird, the accident involved a yellow Ela 07, ZU-DLL, pilots name was Calvin, a wire strike in Limpopo province.

Does anybody know what all our gyro agents / manufacturers are doing about post impact fires. We as consumers / clients are trying to solve a problem that must surely be their responsibility and fall under their research and development. I personnally think it is time we ask them what they are doing to resolve this issue.
I almost feel that CAA's worldwide should say that manufacturers must come up with a solution within the next six months or proof his current system / setup in that time period before any new gyros can be imported in that country. Existing gyro owners then given another six months to upgrade their gyros to the new system. I don't understand why we as end users must pay for research and development when according to me it is the manufacturers responsibility. Yes we can assist them where necessary as it is our safety after all, but I feel we as end users, CAA, SAGPA, RAASA, whoever must put more pressure and emphasize the urgency to manufacturers to resolve this ASAP. This has been a much talked about topic the last couple of years but I have never heard or seen any of the current gyro manufacturers attempt to resolve the issue and I think it is time to force them to take the issue serious.

[Splinter]

This is truly funny. Every time this type of discussion is opened there are guys talking about makes of gyros and mine is better than yours. Please get over yourself and accept that gyros tend to burn. It does not matter what you fly, the chance is there and any chance according to me is to much. So whether you fly a RAF, Ela, Magni, Xenon or lawnmower please make positive inputs on this discussion or don't make any at all. To many threads have died a slow death because we want to sling mud in stead of really trying to find a solution and making gyros safer!

Do we as a gyro community have to sort this issue out ourselves through someone like Johan von Ludwig or can we put pressure on manufacturers to find solutions?

[Low Level]

you ALWAYS seek to make a skewed comparison between gyro types. Really, I think the gyro community in South Africa has moved on from this. It's time you did too.

Callie - RERIG.

[braam hechter]

Hi All.

Thanks for all the inputs. I think there are lots to learn... I will not delve into that.

If you have time, go to http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?c ... ail&id=169 and then read the requirements for BCAR-T. (Minimum requirements for Gyro design) Some time ago there were some discussions on which aircraft complies and which not. I think JvL stated it correctly when he stated that flying goes about compromises and the management of risks. Normally an aircraft is designed for normal conditions, with a safety factor. If an aircraft was designed and built to withstand all possible abuse it would be fairly heavy, as an example, you may fly from a tar runway hence you don't need 6 ply tyres. If you fly from a bush strip you will opt for 6 ply tyres but know that you will pay a 2 kg weight penalty. This leaves you the opportunity to decide how you want to use the machine.

Looking at the accidents and the sequence of events leading to an accident, i wonder if the solution lies with the machine or if we cannot do something upstream. This may include more flying and maybe working in a simulator. From experience in a simulator i have seen that if you are exposed to unexpected situations often, you are better equiped to handle with an emergency.

How many of us do not handle the fourth emergency landing better than the first. The experience kicks in an we handle it better. Unfortunately many pilots do not make it past the first one and have to pay the ultimate price.

I would look further than the manufacturers and think about myself, first, as the component that can cause an accident. When last did i fly, is the fuel in the machine old, when last did i work through the correct procedures (we take so many things for granted i.e. starting). There are so many things to think about. Unfortunately the machine in an accident, is the end result of many small things that were neglected...

Just my 2c worth.

Greetings and fly safely

Braam Hechter

[t-bird]

Thanks Mak

You have hit the nail on the head “Does anybody know what all our gyro agents / manufacturers are doing about post impact fires. We as consumers / clients are trying to solve a problem that must surely be their responsibility and fall under their research and development. I personnally think it is time we ask them what they are doing to resolve this issue.”

Learjet
If you think I skew the statistics so be it. Would you feel better if we take it to a third party to analyse? We will get the same flipping results.

I don’t choose my friends on what they fly and I have unfortunately lost two in Magni post fire accidents and one in a Thunderbird accident.

My first flight in a MAGNI gyro with Basie Wessels. It is flipping sad if you read the accident report and realised that nothing has been done about it.

[braam hechter]

Hi Again.

After all the previous bla, bla, bla and ...

Please read through the following document just for interest. It is just something that we use to get into a specific mindset to ensure that people think safety.

http://sms4aviation.com/uploads/ICAO_DOC_9859.pdf

Enjoy the read.

Greetings

Braam Hechter

[Learjet]

Hi T-Bird - statistics aside, we are actually both on the same side here. We both want to make gyro flying safer. I guess the question is how best to go about it. You feel the buck stops with the manufacturer, I feel it starts with pilot training and competency. The answer very likely falls squarely in the middle.

[Sukkelaar]

Die mens is menslik en maak foute (Dit sal altyd so wees)
Beter opgeleid = minder foute
Baie goed opgelei = nog minder foute.

Ek is net menslik en die kanse is goed dat ek n paar as vlienier sal maak. Maar ek dink nie ek, of enige ander mens
behoort dood te brand as ons n fout gemaak het nie.

Sort dit uit.

Groete





Groete

[Gyronaut]

My 2c so far...
Any ruptured tank will spill fuel. I have had the misfortune of witnessing a VWGolf burn on a freeway after a minor accident that ruptured the tank and one of the occupants remained trapped. The 4 or so in-car fire extinguishers which appeared almost instantly, plus the heavy duty extinguisher from our bus were useless.

On a positive side, I received it on good authority today that Magni is taking the issue very seriously and looking at rupture-proof tanks. I'd fit one, even if inside my existing tank, tomorrow.

G-impact cut-off? - good idea, if it is failsafe I'd fit one tomorrow. I had a Lotus with a roll-over fuel cut-off switch that cut sometimes for no reason.

Fire-ball? - good idea for an engine fire, I doubt it would have any effect on about 70ltrs of fuel gushing out and about in torrents while the accident is happening.

Deto-stop? Will it help even if the tank ruptures? I think not (but I have been known to be wrong before)

Asbestos exhaust insulation? Expert opinions please?

Wire-cutters? If Bell and others consider them worth while, perhaps we should appoint someone to investigate the feasibility?

ALL OF THE ABOVE PERHAPS? Lets establish order of priority and execute.

Improvement of Safety-mindedness, training and currency are all vital and will take time to establish properly. We must stop the fire risk NOW.

As a committee member of SAGPA I am committed to doing whatever is considered necessary by the members so make yourselves heard please.

Email info@sagpa.co.za for items to be put on the agenda.

Together we can/must fix it.

Len

[Wagtail]

Good morning,

One of our members did not just sit around, he went to Buck rogers and asked him again for his opinion. Below is an extract of the mail we exchanged on the subject. Please go through it and understand the concept, then add constructive comments please.

Thanks very much Leo for your effort to go and see Old Buck.

Below is the extract containing my answers to some suggestions and comments :

His ( Buck Rogers ) suggestion for a gyro is as follows.

Either an aluminium or Kevlar fuel tank with a high grade nitrile rubber (apparently mogas is more aggressive than avgas? The Alcohol in MOGAS and the additives are a bit more aggressive than AVGAS blends. ) bladder inside the tank with reticulated polyurethane foam (typically sells for R20 per cubic ‘litre’).

We have been looking at this for a long time. It is definitely the answer BUT there are a few serious hassles when it comes to retrofitting an existing machine. There is no way to get a bladder into a tank with such complicated curves as the current Magni, ELA fuel tanks. The use of a bladder inside a tank must be taken care of in the design phase and then the shape of the tank must be considered. Bladders make “waves” and bulges and this can trap valuable fuel so in applications with such low fuel quantities as we typically use in gyros these pockets of trapped fuel can be very serious.

The reticulated polyurethane foam takes up around 2% of the volume in the tank, retards vapours and sloshing and spillage.

This foam is the same stuff I was referring to on the forum. My bet and sentiments are currently with this foam. We must just get absolute clarity about particular foam and fuel compatibility because I know there was some issues with Polymer based foams and alcohol containing fuels. One idea would be to physically open the tank and install the foam inside and then close the tank again.

A tube type fuel float would work in this application.

Agree, there are capacitance probes which are less than 10mm in diameter and they will not be bothered by foam on the outside.

Do you think that it is worth pursuing the idea?

Yes.
If we entertain my thought process about how the “fireball” develops it will be because a large quantity of fuel is released very fast ( less than 0.5 second more than 20 liters of fuel is ignited in an area of say 1m^2. Any measures which can reduce the area and the quantity in this config will have a positive effect on the size of the fireball.

The foam inside the tank will reduce the “bursting charge” of fuel initially released. If we can reduce the speed with which this fuel charge travels we can reduce the area of the immediate spill.
It would be ideal to have covered the outside of the tank with a “bladder” But the examples I have seen so far is just too thick and “rigid”.
One idea I can propose is to use a “fire blanket” on the outside of the tank. This can easily be shaped to follow the contours of the tank and if we pick a good quality type it is mechanically strong and robust. The stuff I have worked with is the Mil spec material and it feels like a think cotton, something like a demin trouser. It can be stitched together and it is approaching the tear strength of ARAMID fibre sheets. ( the stuff incorporated in bullet proof vests ).

The mechanism of this blanket on the outside is then to form a sort of “bag” ( not water tight ) around the tank. If the tank raptures the fuel will still spill, BUT the force is greatly reduced because the fire blanket will stop the fuel velocity and will only allow seepage out.

Regards
Johan von Ludwig

Thanks and regards,

Leo

[Wagtail]

On a further note. I ma not saying that a fuel pipe will never tear during an accident, but I am not aware of engine - airframe seperation in any of the accidents> Now as long as the engine and airframe stay together I think the only way the fuel line can tear or be compromised is by an object hitting it and cutting it or it being torn off by say a rock or wire or brach or something. If we can coem up with a sensible failure mode ( how or why did the fuel ine lose it's integrity ) then we can come up with a possible safety measure.

As far as G-triggers and high flow cut-offs....I am again not being negative but we must just appreciate the environment we play in. In the automotive world a failure of these sort of items will result in anger and frustration, in our world we just cannot go and incorporate another piece of equipment WHICH WILL FAIL at some point in its livecycle.
The FMEA on these items becomes incredibly complex within a few itterations and from my background in the explosives and Hydrogen industry I will want to see " 2 out of three" logic on most of these single point interventions. Example.

I always design with the following "fact" in mind...."if it can it will"....now keep this in mind when we look at the following:

If we install a NC ( normally closed ) valve in the fuel line to enable shutt off in the event that electrical power is lost by a cut wire.....one day it will fail and it will cause an engine out...yes you an install a by-pass, tthen you must make sure there is a check to confirm the bypass is not compromised and so on.....

Same goes for G-load. What will happen if this system fails just after airborne out of a field like Morningstar..there will not be time to activate a by-pass if you are 20 ft above the trees..Now teh question stands did we improve or compromise inherent safety with this mod.

We must just respect a few unfortunate facts.
The gyro industry is currently a commercial world and we are unfortunately subject to commercial forces.

Can they install airbags in jets...YES....why is it not installed ....MONEY. It is that simple.

In general aviation there are seat belts available with airbags in the safety belt......why don't we see it as standard equipment?? same answer.

Now in the gyro world we must "understand" this matter, I did not say accept, I said UNDERSTAND.

Who ever proposes a modification to an existing product must be absolutely sure and confident and be very sure and be very confident and , and, and that the mod will not add any other risk or compromise which can ever be used in an argument.
This is the real world,
Our challenge is to come up with mods, add ons or improvements which will pass the real world test of :
- making financial sense
- not adding additional safety conserns....things like reducing the performance or increasing the empty weight are serious matters not te be taken lightly.
- not implying that there is a design error or design flaw somewhere

I do believe we are now making enough progress to push this thing through. I don't even need to contact my fellow Committe members because I think Len's comment is valed for every single member on the Committee.

Please lets just stick together and improve our sistuation in a structured and documented manner, then we WILL NOT have any hassles with CAA or even the manufacturers.

Regards
JvL

[Splinter]

NOW WE ARE TALKING! Thank you Johan this is exactly how this tread is supposed to be!

I like the idea af the foam inside the tank and the "blanket" on the outside. I was looking at the tank in the Ela yesterday and I can believe that installing a bladder inside will be very difficult and maybe even impossible! Does Mr. Rogers have any idea how much weight the foam and blanket will ad? 2% of tank capacity is not allot to lose in my opinion and fuel gauges can be replaced either by flow meters or pipes like mentioned before. Just a suggestion, maybe we should assign one person to communicate with Mr. Rogers until we have some solid answers? Can you imagine the whole gyro community phoning him about the same thing.....

[Gyronaut]

Oh, I forgot to mention that back-up safety straps will be fitted to both my doors as SOON as Magni tells me how/where. Goes without saying almost.

Forgive my ignorance, but how come I seem to be the only person that does not know Buck Rogers? Tell more please? He certainly sounds like he knows his business.