Magni Gyro Rigging

[t-bird]

by gyrosa » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:28 pm
T-Bird. Speed is not the issue.

Your first post “ M22 from 5-15mph.”

Per Magni fans post “have at least a ten Mph gain” interesting to notice that

That is for the speed issue.

Start growing up with some intelligent questions or solutions!!!!
I take offence from this post. But then let’s keep to your topic

You developed a rigging process only currently . That means that Magni’s were rigged incorrectly in the last 10 years ?

Then I had I look at your post you can come out guns blazing over other instructors and that is Ok ???

Have a look at your post
by gyrosa » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:20 am
Hi Dave,
Have also started to investigate the accidents and My list goes back to about 2000. What was interesting here is that I have now gone right back to the original instructor and "bingo" things are starting to form a picture.
There is one instructor who is "responsible" for almost 80% of these accidents ie., these guys were trained by him. On further investigation I found that there are certain dangerous exercises (not part of the training syllabus) that this guy is forcing down on his students. “

Then it is also OK to have a go at other instructors flying where it was within the law. Could your perhaps tell us if your flying is always within the law ??

by gyrosa » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:21 pm
Sad to say Len, I've already investigated and there was an instructor in the group!!!!
Yes I agree with you that they should be named and shamed, but I would like a pole on this. What do the other forum users think about the idea and how should we go about it. I would hate this thing to get out hand and shame someone wrongfully simply because of personal or other issues.

But like your said “Start growing up with some intelligent questions or solutions!!!!”

And what do I know about gyros “know very little or bugger all about other gyro's, even though, as in your case you might have owned a Magni”

[gyrosa]

T-Bird
The first post was to Magni owners stating that this rigging was possible and the results. It was not meant to be seen as a speed issue but more as a service to improve their overall performance and efficiency AND as stated directed to Magni owners.
As for the development of the rigging, it has been through studying various types of gyros over the last 30-40 years and their rigging and putting it into practice on my own over the last 4 years that I finally came with a solution. This was not an overnight thing, neither do I state that other gyro's, including Magni's were incorrectly rigged. I never stated that!! The tests done were that on a given power setting they tended to be between 5-15 mph faster on both the M16 and M22. This is a service to all Magni owners and the issue was directed at Magni owners. It has absolutely nothing to do with other gyro type owners, or other gyro types.
This thread is also about Magni Gyro Rigging, instructors you will find elsewhere as also the issue on incidents and accidents.

[t-bird]

Hi Gyrosa

Why you get worked up when I post I don’t know.

You have probably the most knowledge about Gyro’s in this country.

I have even named you as one of the hero’s in the industry
“ by t-bird » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:39 pm

Thanks but I am no hero.
The Hero’s in the gyro industry are:
Roelf Palm for all his training and gyro tours that he has conducted.
Johan von Ludwig – for his developments at Wagtail aviation.
The Mocke’s for bringing the RAF to South Africa
Johan Stemmet – Flynote for his Fly the beloved country
Charles du Toit for his gyro videos
FOGYRO for his contribution to this forum and avcom
The guy who has developed the Sycamore
Piet Kruger for his training
Josua Groenewalt for his airmanship and training
Eric Torr for his developments and knowledge
Johan for SAGPA

I have read my post again but could not find anything malicious about it.

If there is, point it out and I will correct.

If you have personal issues with me then sort it out over the phone, but I did not deserve your comments on this forum.

[FO Gyro]

Just because a gyro can be improved my doing xyz to it, doesn't mean there was a problem in the first place necessarily.

We are getting bogged down here in symantics. Everybody, let's keep this informative for those others reading it. They don't want to read about your personal differences or interpretation.

Eric, I'm happy with my Mt-03's speed, although any improvement is always welcome. I don't suppose your trick would work on an MT-03?

[old no 7]

I don't suppose your trick would work on an MT-03?

Hi Glenn,
Get Theuns to change the 3 to an "S". 15mph improvement in speed

[gyrosa]

Hi Glenn
Have not looked at other models yet, but I suppose it could be possible.

[gyrosa]

During the course of this week I was training a student at Springs, and although he already has considerable hours on his Ela and not solo yet, (reasons not to be discussed), I found that he kept on forgetting to pull the stick back after he pre-rotated. The two of us then sat down to look at a possible solution in the form of an alarm, and hey presto, I think we managed to solve this problem. How it will work is once the pre-rotator lever is pulled to pre-rotate, the audible alarm, connected to the headset goes off and will only reset once the pre-rotator lever is returned to it's off position AND the stick brought back to it's full rear position. The first prototype should be finished within the next 2 weeks.
The main reason is that when one is in a hurry, (and it can happen even with plenty of experience), the pilot forgets to tilt the rotor rearwards and goes hell for leather down the runway and could end up with blade flap and a serious bill for repairs.
We also looked at the MT and the same device can also be fitted there.
Admit that this is an add on, but there purely for safety reasons.

[mak]

Gyrosa

There is a cheaper option than fitting a device, although I am for anything that can improve safety. I had the same problem on the Ela (and I know of other Ela pilots as well) during training and just couldn't get it right. My instructor desided to change my take-off sequence and I haven't forgotten it since.
Old sequence: Release pre-rotator, release brake, stick back, gooi kole.
New sequence: Release pre-rotator, stick back, release brake, gooi kole.
I think it's got something to do with the Ela brake and once you released it, your hand and mind is at the throttle and think throttle is the next procedure.
My softness on the other hand has no problem with the original sequence.

[Gyronaut]

I too am all for anything that improves safety and assists us in getting it right.

Having said that (and at the risk of being 'klapped')...

We know our gyro's can't fly at the rotor RPM we are able to pre-rotate to. (ignoring machines that can jump-start) so it follows logically that we need more rpm.

The question arises then... If one understands the dynamics of autorotation then surely your brain must tell you that you will not generate adequate rotor speed if the stick isn't back and therefore you will not be able to fly? A parachutist wont forget his parachute when he jumps out of a plane? Are we concentrating on the 'sequence' rather than the reasons for the sequence? To me its logical to build ample rotor rpm through pre-rotation (to prevent low-speed blade-flap i.e. coning), back on the stick to continue building rpm through prop-wash assistance, release the brake and increase throttle to keep this process going. When you feel the drag and see the rotor rpm continue to build positively, gooi kole!

Or am I missing something?

Len

[FO Gyro]

Len, I think the point Eric was raising is that the MT-03 and ELA pre-rotate slightly differently from Magni's and the Sycamore in that 200RPM is achieved whilst the disc is still horizontal (because of the pre-rotator cut out micro switch that engages when the stick is brought back), unlike the Magni and Sycamore where prop-wash can help to build up the RPM from 130 or so. For the MT-03 and ELA, things happen rather quickly: let go of the pre-rotator switch, stick full back, full power - 3 sets of actions. At least in the Magni and Sycamore, the stick is already back, and so less to think about, only 2 sets of actions, let go of pre-rotator, full power.

As Eric mentioned, in a moment of not thinking, it is possible to take-off, whilst the stick is in the forward position with devastating results. It's ok if one only flies gyro's, but I find after flying my bigger fixed wing aeries, for each take-off, I have to actively say to myself, "make sure the stick is back".

I also think that because of the design of the ELA and MT-03 pre-rotators, where spinning up to 250RPM is possible (no wind), it has done away with the "feeding in slowly of the power" concept, and "feeling the rotor drag". These machines can have full power fed in smoothly in one go. The Magni also has an effective pre-rotator. In a way, this rapid type take-off removes one from the principles of how gyro's fly. I know on Rotaryforum, one poster commented that in the US, they are training a new breed of gyro pilot (because of the new gyro designs), that makes these pilots somewhat unaware of the basic principles of how gyro's fly (eg. building up rotor RPM slowly, feeling the rotor drag, feeding in more power slowly etc). Is main wheel balancing still taught in the gyro syllabis?

Conversely when I fly my B737, I have to make dead sure I keep the Boeing's stick in the neutral position until we reach V1, and then Vr (rotate) speed. Big aeries don't fly very well with the stick in the full back position!

[Gyronaut]

I understand and agree with everything you are saying FO.

I also like to 'feel' the pre-rotator disengage on a machine before the take-off sequence begins. Dave Lehr had a scary experience as a result of a prerotator that didn't disengage. Cost him new rotors (and a few years off his life from the fright he got when the bendix disintegrated during flight). This nogal with Mrs Learjet on board!

I always remind myself to take my time about the whole take-off sequence from the time I enter the runway until I've reached post-take off check alt. This is where most accidents happen in my humble opinion. If I feel rushed, I'd rather wait. The one Gyro-oops I have had (low speed blade flap) was because I was told to 'expedite'. If I had vacated and waited it would never have happened.

Fly safe

Len

[FO Gyro]

Len I agree about slowing down.

I see it in the simulator. A good, safe pilot is one that can learn to slow him/herself down when faced with an emergency. Most of the scenarios that are screw ups are because the crew rushed. Some of the more well known crew I have had the pleasure of flying with, that are sometimes seen as the "topgun" of pilots like Glen Dell and Scully, are very disciplined, slow and methodical in their decision making - not the ace, one man band Topgun stuff you see in the movies.

[gyrosa]

Hi Len,I agree with both you and Glenn. The decision make should not be rushed. The problem that I found was a rookie pilot wants "to get up there - PRONTO" and the results can be a disaster. I also agree with the idea of a set sequence, but how many of us have drilled the sequence into the guy, even up to the point of reminding him before pre-rotation, that the stick must come back after pre-rotation on the Ela and he still misses it. Last week I had to tell the student this about 75% of the time and typically he hears but does not listen. A sharp noise into the ear will make him sit up and listen (I hope).

[t-bird]

An alarm that is activated when you keep your stick forward is a great idea !!!
Things like this should be mandatory for all gyros.

The Mt-03 should also have a bypass switch if the micro switch fail on the stick. I have seen these things fail and the only way to get it to prerotate was if another person stands next to the gyro and manually engage the prerotator. Very dangerous but what do you do in the middle of Africa.

[Magnifan]

My second solo flight took place a few weeks after my first, as my instructor had been away on a gyro tour to Mozambique. He took me up for a few circuits to check me out and then climbed out of the gyro at the end of the runway and sent me off. I was even more nervous than on my original solo flight, as I had not been flying for about four weeks. I spun up to 180 rpm, released the brakes and pre-rotator, opened the throttle and hurtled down the runway with the stick full forward. My instructor did not have his handheld with him as he had just got out of thr gyro and tells me that he looked away because he didn't want to see what was coming! After about two seconds the gyro started to rock violently from left to right and I realised immediately that the stick was forward and I had rotor flap. The correct action would have been to cut the throttle, but in my panic I pulled the stick all the way back. The gyro leapt into the air and continued to shake violently for a few more seconds after which it settled down and I flew on. I landed a minute or two later and had very wobbly legs as I walked to the hanger to have a cup of coffee and think about how close it had been. I don't think that I will easily do it again, but it is not the best way to learn!