Gyro training in SA..........

[Thebushpilot]

Gents

Interesting discussion. Two points I would like to comment on.

1. By increasing the training doesn't necessary mean that you'll have a better product, quite the contrary, you may end up with someone who actually performs worse. It's the quality of training that's delivered, and not the quantity, that really counts. Hence, standardise your instructors and this will filter through to the trainees. At he same time if you introduced different grades, the higher grade instructors should be responsible as a mentor to those, in the same area, with a lower grade and should thus impart knowledge downwards. As someone said, at the end of the day, it's the instructor that releases the trainee and he had better be damn sure that he's doing the right thing - if the trainee's not ready he simply then gets more training.

2. A training syllabus cannot cater for all conditions, but a trainee should be taught where their boundaries are. In fact, all of us, instructors included, are still "learning" when exposed to different elements and conditions . During the basic training the human element should also be introduced to teach and educate trainee's where their limits are all the time. I'm still a proponent of reducing the hours if previously qualified with another license , as many of the basic elements have already been experienced, one just has to experience it in a gyro.

IMHO, to improve our standards, I believe the gyro community requires:
1. A training course on how to give instruction (adult learning changes);
2. Instructor grades with a test and experience level required to move upwards;
3. Mentorship over students after the student has been issued a license up until they have 200 hours (example);
4. The implementation of regional DE's; and
5. Use evidence from accidents to enhance training. For example, if the gyro's are flying into wires, enhance your low flying syllabus to specifically identify where the threats are etc - normally if you look for trouble, you'll find it!

I could go on but I'll call it a day. Let's keep this thread proactive and productive, at the end of the day we're all here because of the same machine!

Two questions from my side:

1. What, instructional techniques or enhancement training was discussed at the seminar to improve the instructional delivery of the current instructors
2. Why is SAGPA deciding on all these issues, surely it should be the regulator.

[Gyronaut]

Now thats constructive input TBP. Thanks. I agree entirely.

In answer to your questions;

Mr Hechter of the CAA briefly presented their "Teaching, Learning and Adult Human Behaviour" course at the seminar. The material will be made available to all attendees and anyone else that wants it.

Two subcommittees were established to advise the central committee. One is to establish teaching and material/test Standards and the other is to determine if the existing credits applicable for prior experience are adequate as well as to advise on the members' feelings with regard to instructor ratings and the hours and admission requirements.

SAGPA is now an "ARO" - "Aviation Recreation Organisation" and therefore has more responsibility for 'self regulation' in terms of our Manual of Procedure. The regulator will look to SAGPA for guidance since we represent the entire Gyro flying fraternity through our members.

Rgds

Len

[saraf]

Hi , if I may ask the following;

Seeing that we have has a lecture in human performances.

Lets say a high time pilot with a PPL with 3000h, normally a human takes 21 day's to get rid of a habit. Do you think 6h or even 10h of convertion time onto a whole new dimention of flying is enough?

[Thebushpilot]

Hello Saraf

"a high time pilot with a PPL with 3000h, normally a human takes 21 day's to get rid of a habit. Do you think 6h or even 10h of convertion time onto a whole new dimention of flying is enough?"

To answer your question, Yes I do. A gyro, once that disc is turning, has it's weak points, but is no different to flying an aircraft, all it does is land a bit shorter! The PPL knows the effects of a different winds, slopes, terrain surfaces, he understands all the radio work, X country procedures, met, law etc. All one needs to pay attention to is the gyro, it's what the Aussie's do, look at their accident rate compared to ours. One can convert onto a twin turbine aircraft for less than half the hours that what one needs to fly a gyro - does that make sense?

Instead of increasing the flying, I believe you could change the way you give instruction, first fly the initial hours on a fixed wing and then convert onto the gyro - one does this once the foundation of flying has been established. At the end of the day the onus is upon the instructor to make the right call.

[Learjet]

Hi , if I may ask the following;

Seeing that we have has a lecture in human performances.

Lets say a high time pilot with a PPL with 3000h, normally a human takes 21 day's to get rid of a habit. Do you think 6h or even 10h of convertion time onto a whole new dimention of flying is enough?

What do you define as "a whole new dimension"? Three axis is three axis unless someone discovers a new fourth dimension to flying With respect, the 21 days sounds like something out of a smokenders ad. Ebie are you suggesting that a convex should take 21 days?

[FLYNOTE]

On the topic of 3 dimentional I just have to share this one with you. Sorry to break the 'intensity' of the discussion at hand.
Nathaniel was interviewing Eon de Vos on his talk show on Sabc 3 a few years ago. They were discussing Eon's passion for flying. Nathaniel asked Eon what was so fascinating about flying for him. Eon answered that he wished Nathaniel knew the incredible feeling one has when you are flying aerobatics. "There is no other way a human being can experience the thrill of moving 3 dimentionally in space but in a Pitts special ." Nathaniel answered " im not so sure. You should see me in a boutique."

[Learjet]

[FLYNOTE]

[quote][/quote]Re: Gyro training in SA..........
by saraf » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:00 pm

Hi , if I may ask the following;

Seeing that we have has a lecture in human performances.

Hel ou Ebie. En dan kla die manne as ons Afrikaans praat!!
Ek spot met jou Kon nie die een verby laat gaan nie.
Its a great Tuesday morning.
Interesting topic. It takes a lifetime to learn to fly and it all starts once you have the nod from your instructer who oks you to start experiencing the journey. Some guys with high hours still cant fly. Some with low hours are excellent pilots. It all starts with attitude. Some newbies to aviation often think they are invincible once they receive their wings. I have heared the aces describing the abnormal situations they flew in and how well they handled it . The more hours you have, the more prepared you should be to share your vulnerability and the fickleness of flight. Each flight should be a learning experience for low and high end pilots. Instructers can never expose or prepare a student to all piloting a gyro can throw at you. But they can and do constantly make you aware of the fact that there always is more to it than meets the eye. Respect your machine and expect the unexpected during any flight . Do not only concentrate on the air in which you are moving but also on the terrain over which you are moving in case the two by chance meet .etc etc.
Im going to get up and fly before going to the office. What a beautiful morning for doing this thing we all love so much.

[saraf]

Hi Johan

Jan ek dink vinniger as wat ek kan tik, en onthou ek kom van die Kalahari. Ma as mens mos nie die britse taal hier gooi nie dan is dit ook nie reg nie. Lol. So dan moet julle ma met my engels opgeskeep sit........

[FLYNOTE]

[saraf]

HI Dave

You know your eating habits don't you? I assume so........Do me a favor, try and change them and let me know how long it takes for it to become a natural thing with you.................??

I am not saying a high time pilot can not learn to fly in 6 or 10hours. But what I have found is that it sometimes takes longer to teach a high time pilot than a new one.


PILOT FLYING EXPERIENCE TRAINING HOURS ON RAF 2000 SOLO DATE HOUR SINCE SOLO ON RAF 2000 INCEDENTS/ACCIDENTS
All INFORMATION TAKEN FORM STUDENT FILES AND PILOTS LOG BOOKS

JOHN VAN DER MERWE COMMERCIAL PILOT AND INSTUCTOR 36.1 452 NONE
ETIENNE GERBER COMMERCIAL PILOT AND INSTUCTOR 20.9 50 NONE
MARK BELLINGHAM [bINSTUCTOR[/b] 38 490 NONE
Jannie Schoeman ZU RCB NO EXPER 37
RUDI SCHOEMAN ZU RCB NO EXPER 37


The above proves that it takes almost the same hours for a high time pilot and a new pilot.

" A gyro, once that disc is turning, has it's weak points, but is no different to flying an aircraft, all it does is land a bit shorter" This is exactly the attitude that is out there and what is causing our problems..............

You all have a great day.........

Regards
Eben Mocke Jnr

[Gyronaut]

I fail to see what those few examples prove. I have similar stats that prove the opposite on Magni's. Statistics can be made to tell others what you want. Add ALL the RAF pilots, and ALL the accidents to date (even the unreported ones - which we know of) and then lets see what your statistics prove?

A Question to FO-Gyro please: How long did it take you to learn to fly a gyro?

The above proves that it takes almost the same hours for a high time pilot and a new pilot.

I can't help but disagree; on a RAF perhaps, but this certainly has not been my experience on other machines. I also disagree that a Gyro, once flying, is any different to other 3 axis light aircraft except that it won't stall or spin. After pre-rotation at Stellenbosch one day, I gave Captain Derek Lord (Fatboy on Avcom) the controls. He took off, flew a perfect circuit and landed my M24 in front of a crowd with no assistance on the controls from me. What is going to take him 20+ hours to learn that he does not already know? What bad habits must he take 21 days to 'unlearn'? He flies different types of commercial jets with different characteristics every day. He also holds/held a Helicopter licence and display flies the Bosbok masterfully.

Finally...

In my OPINION we got nowhere.,.................... And I am ashamed to say the least.

That statement is not only grossly insulting to me as head of Training and Instruction for SAGPA but also towards ALL the other instructors present, the CAA and the SAGPA committee members that were there and are trying their best to improve things for our fellow enthusiasts all round - without compensation or benefit to ourselves. Ebie, I respectfully request that you may want to look at your own attitude my friend. Perhaps you are too biased toward your own product and may have forgotten that we were there for the good of the sport, not for the good of one brand only!

It is a glorius day here in Cape Town and like Flynote, I am rather going to go fly. Beats having this kind of negative discussion ad-nauseum.

Ek volstaan.

Lekker, veilig vlieg!

Len

[Thebushpilot]

Saraf

I joined this forum to share my experience, provide opinions and make constructive suggestions as to ways of Improving the overall Gyro training system, so please don't tell me it's a poor attitude when I share my experience with you.

What you can tell me though is; in what way is a gyro different to fly compared to a fixed wing, after one has pre rotated the disc - please list all the differences.

The references you provided have no baring on gyro training overall, it is RAF based. I would actually like to know why the training takes so much longer, an off the street average guy can get a license in the time on a different make of machine, yet it takes experienced pilots the same length to master a RAF. Questions worth asking yourself, are you using the correct instructional techniques? Is the RAF so much Harder to fly than a ELA or Magni, if so then why not train someone on a Magni and convert them onto the RAF?

If student possesses a good attitude, knowledge and skill it makes the life of an instructor so much easier. The knowledge can be obtained from hard work, the skill refined through manoeuvres, but the attitude comes from within. This same philosophy also applies to instructors!

To all instructors, be honest when answering this question; if you knew someone was coming to do a spot check on your instructional technique, how much extra work would go into preparing your briefings and updating your knowledge, I bet most instructors would sharpen up - is this not the standard that the student deserves from the outset?

[Kalahari]

I am not a Gyro Pilot, it is a dream of mine, nor am I an instructor and therefore not an expert on any regulations and maybe I miss the whole point on this but I can not see a reason why the minimum 15h rule should increase as it remain the responsibility of the instructor to ensure that a student is on standard before you send him solo like SARAF anyway seem to do , no matter if he has done 15 or 150 hrs. If he is not on standard he may not go solo, bottom line. Why punish everyone because we are not all having the same skills, I paid the price for going solo too early on a trike and I still blame my instructor for that because he knew better than me that I was not on standard and I trusted him, who am I to say I am not ready if he kick me out of the nest. Duur foutjie but I did not lost the lesson learnt. I understand that an instructor's time is money but it can not buy a life or a good reputation.

[THI]

Here is a thought, why not discard the min hours as a whole??

No more "I solo'ed at less hours than you" type of contests. Then it is fully up to the instructors...

Not a good thought I know, but still...