BCAR-T Questions

[Conrad]

Dumb question
But, why the BCAR, what does it stand for...T ?
What makes that so special compared to other countries regulations?
excuse the ignorance.!

[FlyingDoc]

John,
To answer your question, NO the Xenon does not have the BCAR-T certificate. What it does have is our CAA Part 24 (Airworthiness Standard for NTCA). This is the only requirement required for a gyro to be registered in SA.

As I understand it it would be very difficult for any gyro to get a full BCAR-T certificate.

What one is able to do to show that your gyro complies with the SA requirements is to use sections/information from foreign authorities to justify the requirements for the Part 24. For the Xenon we were able to get the information from Germany and France plus our own 40 hours of proving flights.

Hope that clears up this issue.

Alan

[John Boucher]

Thanks Alan... I just think there is a lot of mumbo jumbo and most of us are just trying to make sense of it all.

[FlyingDoc]

Sure, normally is when there are processes in place. However I would rather have it done properly and consistently. It does appear that pre 2008 things were not done too well.

I must admit to being really frustrated by "red tape" during my waiting as well.

Alan

[saraf]

HI

So there is gyros approved by the CAA that is not BCAR T approved.

So WHY DID THE RAF HAVE TO BE BCAR T APPROVED BEFORE THE SACAA WOULD ACCEPT IT????

YOU CAN NOT PUT ONE AIRCRAFT TO A STANDARD AND ANOTHER TO ANOTHER STANDARD.

IF THIS IS TRUE I WILL BE MAKING AN APOINTMENT WITH THE SACAA AND PEOPLE INVOLVED.

[braam hechter]

Good Day All.

Thanks for all the wisdom being dished out, i am learning a lot. To those interested in educating themselves, here is the link to the BCAR-T or CAP643 document. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP643.PDFe. (This is normally used as a guideline during the conception and design phase of an aircraft. The descisions are then made on a safety case, on what you want to comply with, and what you are going to ask for exemptions on with an alternative means of complience. In my short time in aviation i have not seen many aircraft/gyro's fully BCAR-T compliant. Lucily i am now better informed) If you need more information on the legislation pertaining to the requirements for NTC aircraft to be registered and operated in South Africa you can go to http://www.caa.co.za/ look under acts and regulations specifically Part 24, 43, CATS NTCA and CATS GMR . If you are still uncertain, you can pm me and i will gladly supply the names and phone numbers of aviation certification engineers. This is what they do for a living. If this also fail, you can make an appointment with the certification division at the CAA. They will gladly explain the regulations and requirements for aircraft to operate in South Africa.

Ps. Eben, you are welcome for the appointment. Jason is availabe for further discussions.

Greetings and fly safely
Braam Hechter

[OzGyro]

Hi All

Ok I have been watching this thread develop and as others have stated, there still seem to be a few unanswered questions. In order to clear what appears to be a lot of smoke and mirrors surely someone can clarify a few points once and for all and make this whole issue a little more transparent.

Under what authority/certification do the following gyro’s operate here in SA

Autogyro MT03
Autogyro MTO Sport
Autogyro Calidus

ELA 07 & 08

Magni M16
Magni M22
Magni M24 ???

Sycamore

Celiar Aviation – Xenon

RAF 2000

It appears that the CAA really lacks genuine knowledge and understanding when it comes to gyro’s in this country, the moment you put a rotor on something they all seem to scamper for the hills. BCAR Section T is nothing more than a money making exercise and I would go as far as to say has done little to improve the accident/fatality rate in this sport. The greatest contribution to safety has been increased training and general awareness. Most of the accidents still occurring in the world today can be attributed to pilot error, so no amount of design control/certification will ever stop this. Having a general understanding of your machine, its capabilities and more importantly your own will be the catalyst to the greatest improvements in this sport. A recent fatality in Australia just this week is probably about to bring one of the biggest changes to gyro flying in that country. Discussions are hinting at the possibility banning of poorly designed high thrust line machines, the debate can and may go on forever, HTL machines don’t necessarily kill pilots but it certainly increases the chances, and especially in the hands of low hour inexperienced operators.

Vittorio Magni has dedicated a great portion of his life to building without doubt some of the finest machines available on the market today. There build quality and unsurpassed safety record speak for themselves. It is also a well known fact that the current M24, 2 place machine is a result of many hours of R+D, and infact Magni were in a position approximately 10 years ago to launch a version of this style machine, but Vittorio himself would not let it happen until he himself was completely satisfied with the quality and safety of the product we see today. After all why would he jeopardise a reputation he has spent almost a lifetime building. Surely the facts speak for themselves.

I have been fortunate enough in my time here in South Africa to meet some great people and seen some great sites and some fantastic facilities. What I am having a hard time understanding is as to why gyro’s don’t have a greater representation than the currently do. I know that the SAGPA exists but I don’t really know what they do. I cant believe with the popularity of the sport in this country that the SAGPA hasn’t tried to develop a similar program as to what exists in Australia. ASRA is the self governing body for gyros and operates under authorisation from the CAA in Australia. All gyro pilots must be financial member in order to train and fly. ASRA and its approved members have the ability to issue certificates of authorisation for any gyro to fly in Australia, and grant type approval. ASRA is run by its members and does not rely on the CAA to send out some office boy to try and understand as to what a gyro is and what it does. Another thing I am struggling to understand is all the negativity surrounding gyro's here, you read thread after thread how Braam and others alike seem to be having to defend gyro's all the time. I have been here now for six months and in that time I dont know of any serious accidents that have involved gyro's, but am aware and have even witnessed GA accidents, know of several GA related deaths, Microlite and Ultralight related deaths and even PPl Helicopter related deaths, yet we constanlty have to defend ourselves. Am I missing something here or am I just stupid?
I firmly believe with the experience and depth of knowledge that exists in this country there is a better way of doing things, hopefully we can all work together, maybe with assistance and in conjunction with SAGPA and take gyro's to the next level.

Ok off my soapbox for now, and sorry for the highjack. Safe flying to all.

Cheers
Darren

[THI]

HI

So there is gyros approved by the CAA that is not BCAR T approved.

So WHY DID THE RAF HAVE TO BE BCAR T APPROVED BEFORE THE SACAA WOULD ACCEPT IT????

YOU CAN NOT PUT ONE AIRCRAFT TO A STANDARD AND ANOTHER TO ANOTHER STANDARD.

IF THIS IS TRUE I WILL BE MAKING AN APOINTMENT WITH THE SACAA AND PEOPLE INVOLVED.

Eben, would you keep us posted?

[FlyingDoc]

Eben,
So there is a full BCAR - T certification for the RAF you build here?
I assume there Factory built?
That is interesting.
Alan

[Cloud Warrior]

Oooooo - this is getting interesting..........

Coke and popcorn ready.

Come on chaps - next lady for a shave..........

[saraf]

Hi

No , no coke and popcorn ............ This process has cost companies Millions in sales and lost revenue.

And those companies are sick of it.

[FlyingDoc]

Hence the reason you pay through the nose for Certified planes.

I think the process, as I have come to appreciate it, is quite simple!

In South Africa we have CAA and they have got well drawn up procedures, which must be adhered to to get Air Worthiness (ATF) here is SA. As BCAR has in the UK and in most countries.

As I understand it, one is able to utilise previously complied with and approved sections from other Authorities, like BCAR etc to justify your application here is South Africa. THis assists in speeding up the process. This I believe is reasonable. It also allows one to reduce the amount of testing that would be required if you were to start of cold here in SA. The frustration comes if one attempts to take short cuts. I have found the folks at CAA very reasonable and willing to discuss matters and debate points. However, I think it is like software, we tend to only read the manuals after we have a problem!

I think we must also separate the standards required for the machine and those required for the pilot. As in any trade / profession you cannot get away without good training. That is irrespective of the craft flown. Some might require some special additional training and to me that would be for the manufacturer to specify before he sells the craft.

I think it would be very useful for say SAGPA to have "working" fly-in. Here the more experience pilots could spend some quality time with the less experience ones on various aspects of flying these craft. Flying dual with someone enabling the less experience to do things he/she might like to try but not that confident to do it alone.

That's [u]all[/u] from me.
Alan

[OzGyro]

Hi All

We I guess its time to humble pie and apologise for what was a ill informed attack on the CAA. I would like to take this opportunity to publically thank Braam Hechter for taking the time to answer many of my questions in detail, and for taking the time to explain the current registration requirements. I like others was probably in the dark and just listening to heresay and not taking the time to fully understand what is truly involved. Sometimes we let emotion take over our logic and let it skew our vision. Thanks again to all who have contributed to this thread and taken the time to share there knowledge.

Cheers
Darren

[FLYNOTE]

"Also does the Xenon have BCAR-T certification?"


O hel , gaan hulle nou my Xenon hierna van my kom afvat ?
Ag nee... ek vlieg dan so lekker !!

[Gyronaut]

"O hel , gaan hulle nou my Xenon hierna van my kom afvat ?
Ag nee... ek vlieg dan so lekker !!

Jissie, ek hoop regtig nie so nie Johan, as hierdie thread so iets veroorsaak sal ek darem vreeslik spyt wees!
Hoe delete mens 'n hele thread??
Ek wil net my aerrie kom haal en net so lekker soos jy vlieg, dis al wat ek vra van 'the powers that be'