touch and goes v. stop and goes

[rod smith]

There was some discussion a while back on Avcom about stop and goes. No one really seemed to know if gyros (all gyros?) can perform touch and goes, or whether they are confined to stop and goes only.
1.What is the situation?
2.Are gyros any more susceptible to rough runway surfaces than trikes and other LSA aeries?
3. If a gyro were doing a touch and go, what would typically be his ground speed just before he opens the throttle for take-off?

Rod Smith

[weedy]

For t & g anyware between 1 and 60 mph, no reason why a gyro must stop first, but it is the best way to land.

If the gyro has a good pre-rotator then rough and bumpy is fine, well in the Sycamore its fine.

[FO Gyro]

Hi Rod,

I replied to that dicussion on Avcom, because you are right, not many people understand gyro's.

A gyro doing a touch and go, appears to come to a complete stop after touching down. Most gyro's approach at speeds of 50-60mph (power on or off). Just as in a fixed wing, when the ground rushes up, the throttle is closed, and very slight back pressure is held on the stick. From a speed of 50-60mph, the speed drops off very quickly, and the gyro will land at around 20mph, and by the time the nose wheel lowers onto the runway, the gyro is doing less than 10mph. The landing roll (ie. from main wheel touchdown to where the gyro is stationary), is around 20m for most gyro's.

This gives the perception that the gyro has hit the brakes, but in fact the brakes are almost never ever used in a landing, because there is so much aerodynamic braking from the rotor drag that the rotor produces. In a nutshell, a gyro goes from 60mph, to less than 10mph, and then has to accelerate back to 60mph during a touch and go.

Regarding bumpy runways. I have information from different manufacturers, that bumpy runways are not great for gyro's. To some, they might appear to handle them well, but it plays havoc with the bushes for the teeter bolt, and some cracks of the hub bar were attributed to bumpy runways in one case, going back 10 yrs or so.

[Gyronaut]

In my humble opinion, half the appeal of a Gyro is its short landing and roll ability. A traditional fixed wing touch-and-go defeats the object.

Crow-hops are also ill-advised and serve very little purpose. The last one will leave you with no runway. Rather fly a tight circuit.

Lastly, Weedy, I agree, Sycamore's are made to handle rough terrain better than most. e.g. the huge tail allows rudder authority for slope take-offs beyond the capabilities of most other gyro's. But then they do weigh a lot more so its horses for courses. Each machine has its pro's and cons and as long as you're happy with your choice, Viva Gyro's.

Fly safe

Len

[rod smith]

Thanks for these replies, Gentlemen. I thought that I had already posted this response, but must have confused it with an Avcom post. The purpose of my question was to establish in my mind how/whether the normal GA fixed wing fellow needs to modify his approch when doing circuits or landings, if there is a gyro in the circuit. Essentially, I would imagine that he needs to give himself an extended downwind to allow for the extra time that will be required by the gyro if it is doing touch and goes/stop and goes. I presume that if a gyro is doing a full stop, it is accepted practice that the pilot makes his touch down point as close to the first turn off as possible, so that he vacates the runway early, rather than touch down on the numbers, come to a virtual stop and then taxi slowly to the first turn-off point.

It's strange that I have never read anything on gyro op's and have never considered the implicationd thereof for the fixed wing pilot. Is there any info that really should be passed on to improve safety for both sets of pilots when they are operating off the same field?

Rod Smith

[MAGNIficent]

Your question:

"The purpose of my question was to establish in my mind how/whether the normal GA fixed wing fellow needs to modify his approch when doing circuits or landings, if there is a gyro in the circuit".

Yes, modify your approach till the runway is clear, safest for both Pilots.

[Gyronaut]

I doubt you need to modify your approach for the average Gyro landing. Once the huge disc above your head goes back and becomes a significant 'airbrake' it stops in a few feet. If the pilot shows good airmanship he will exit at 90degrees and vacate quickly. Far quicker than the average fixed wing, considering its landing-roll and vacating.

An advantage, of course, if you're in a gyro in the circuit (as has happened several times to me and students) a plane lines up and takes its time about getting airborne, we can hover or fly really slowly on final without the fear of stalling and wait for him to get outta there.

I have witnesses that will testify to the fact that we have had to wait on final approach for 'blik' to leave. In a fixed wing it would require a go-around and another full circuit. Of course we are paraat about another aircraft possibly in the circuit behind us without our abilities and if there were one, we would go-around.

Viva Gyro's

Len

[Learjet]

There is an urban legend (ok it apparently really happened, but to keep the peace we'll call it an urban legend...) about a certain flying club chairman who was dead against gyros being allowed at his club because he believed they would be too slow in the circuit and be a hindrance to other traffic. This got right up the nose of a particular gyro owner / club member who decided to prove a point when he happened to hear the chairman practicing in the circuit at another airfield one day. Slotting in behind the chairman's blik aerie the gyro pilot flew a very tight circuit and then much to the chagrin of the chairman succeeded in doing several touch / stop & go's before the now steaming chairman had even got his blik to left base... And so it was that at the next AGM the motion was carried (without so much as a whimper of resistance) to allow gyros to land at the club

[FO Gyro]

At Stellenbosch airfield, low level circuits are not allowed, so it limits the amount of playing I can do, but at the airfield where I used to operate from previously (Kittyhawk), I would do 3 circuits in the same time that a blik aerie would do 1 circuit (flying a 500ft circuit).