Can trikes get sudden wing drop?

[Loco]

Hi guys

I also fly RC planes & totalled my beloved cubby not too long ago (I planted her 30cm into the ground )

What happened was I turned for base with not enough speed at low altitude & she suddenly dropped her wing spiralling to the ground without responding to any of my inputs

As soon as the wing dropped my instinct was to apply opposite aeleron but according to the guys at the field that's the worst thing I could have done as it speeds up the process by decreasing the wing aerea of the wing that's dropping (makes sense) - I should have given opposite rudder & slight down elevator to gain speed and prayed for enough altitude...

Sorry where I'm going with this, can trikes also suffer sudden wing drops & spiral out of control if you're not careful?

If so are certain trikes more likely to do so (I have an Aquilla)?

I guess that's where power+bank+bar comes into play?

The power part gives you extra speed (not just so you keep your current altitude) BUT also to ensure you have sufficient speed into the turn?

Appreciate your input - this was very scary to watch from the ground because you feel helpless - don't want to experience from above...

Thanks
Ant

[HENNING JOHAN]

Hallo,Ant!I had a wing drop on one of my training sessions!I took of from klipriver and were climbing!The instructor told me to watch the airspeed!As I turned to cross down wind the wing stall so hard that my foot went off from the petrol lever! So the instructor told me to pull the bar in and applied power!We recover in 2 seconds!A lesson well learned! I was flying my scout with a stranger wing!

[Sox]

As soon as the wing dropped my instinct was to apply opposite aeleron but according to the guys at the field that's the worst thing I could have done as it speeds up the process by decreasing the wing aerea of the wing that's dropping (makes sense) - I should have given opposite rudder & slight down elevator to gain speed and prayed for enough altitude..

Remember the factor by which the stall speed increases whilst in a turn in a real aircraft ... Will be exactly the same in a model aircraft.
I have been taught that always push the stick forward and counter the start of the spin with opposite rudder - exactly the same advice given to you.

[Loco]

Hallo,Ant!I had a wing drop on one of my training sessions!I took of from klipriver and were climbing!The instructor told me to watch the airspeed!As I turned to cross down wind the wing stall so hard that my foot went off from the petrol lever! So the instructor told me to pull the bar in and applied power!We recover in 2 seconds!A lesson well learned! I was flying my scout with a stranger wing!

Hi Johan, now that you mention it I also had a "brown unerpant" moment while flying with a Scout (not sure what the wing is)!

We were doing figure 8's practicing touch & go's & the Scout suddenly & violently dropped it's wing to the left

Luckily the instructor intervened - I would have probably planted it because we were very low (50-100ft max)...

I thought the drop was caused by a cross-wind or turbulence but the instructor told be it was because I didn't carry enough speed into the turn

(Please I'm not trying to diss Scout's just putting it out there)

If I compare the stall characteristics between a Scout and an Aquilla they seem very different - the Scout's wing (the one I flew with) doesn't like stalling at all, the moments just before the stall you have to literally fight it to stay level

Whereas the Aquilla's seem to stall much more gently?

Cheers
Ant

[Loco]

As soon as the wing dropped my instinct was to apply opposite aeleron but according to the guys at the field that's the worst thing I could have done as it speeds up the process by decreasing the wing aerea of the wing that's dropping (makes sense) - I should have given opposite rudder & slight down elevator to gain speed and prayed for enough altitude..

Remember the factor by which the stall speed increases whilst in a turn in a real aircraft ... Will be exactly the same in a model aircraft.
I have been taught that always push the stick forward and counter the start of the spin with opposite rudder - exactly the same advice given to you.

Hi thanks Sox, yeah I guess one has to drill this in plenty times when training because unfortunately (at least with myself) the first instinct was opposite aileron which is very very bad...

It all happened so fast and violently there was no time for error especially because of the low altitude

[Vatso]

I fly models and every plane has a different time to recover from a dropped wing "stall" the cub is a slow plane and if you dont have enough power to pull it out the stall the recovery close to the ground will be what you had

I was told in my training NO NO NO steep turns close to the ground!!!! in my trike and when we take off speed speed speed
please always fly safe it takes seconds and one wrong choice and it could be the end

always HASELL before steep turns or stalls

[Biggles of Africa]

Interesting topic and one that can be discussed for pages, and should be, this is dangerous territory beyond which lie dragons.
What you experienced was indeed a classic stall/spin accident, but let us not focus on speed, remember, a stall is a function of angle of attack, NOT airspeed, a wing stalls when the critical angle of attack is exceeded, this can happen at ANY speed, it is very dangerous to assume that if we have speed we are safe from stalling, this is simply not true.
We are taught that when in a stall with a wing drop, standard recovery is opposite rudder, stick forward (3 axis) opposite rudder to pick up the dropped wing and stick forward to DECREASE ANGLE OF ATTACK below the critical angle, not increase airspeed.
Fundamentally we need to understand why we perform the actions we do and what effect they have on the aerodynamics at work on the aircraft, not just because our instructor said so.
Those boring theory sessions can be the difference between going home in your car or in the papers, you are doing yourself and your loved ones a great dis-service by doing just enough to get by.
If there is any interest, I would be happy to start a thread or two on subjects you may want to know more about or get a deeper understanding of, and try and keep it as simple and as fun as possible.
I know we have all suffered through it before, but revisiting something we have not touched on in years can only be beneficial and may be of interest and some help to the new pilots.
Remember an informed pilot is a safe pilot.
So let me know if there is any interest, and what you would want to discuss.
Roger, thanks, cheers.

[KFA]

The thread was actually about trikes but I see it has wondered into the 3 - axis realm...so here goes. To add to what has bee said, if you apply aileron you are worsening the situation. Let say your right wing dropped and you apply left aileron, what is actaully happening? Firstly the right aileron will go down into the airflow, increasing the angle of attack of that wing and the left aileron will go up decreasing that wings AOA. So with the down going aileron you are actually deapening the stall, making it more flat, which in turn will result in an irrecoverable flat spin. So correct the situation you should keep the controls neutral, apply opposite rudder to accelerate the stalled wing and then fly out of it. If a spin developed then you need to apply the spin recovery techniques.

[Dobbs]

Biggles - great comment, totally concur with you.

Hi Ant, you made a comment in your first post which concerns me "The power part gives you extra speed (not just so you keep your current altitude) BUT also to ensure you have sufficient speed into the turn?

Bar / stick position determines speed, not power. If flying straight and level in your trike and you apply power, your speed will stay the same and you will begin climbing.

You did well to post this topic, and this is certainly one way to learn, but I believe that your instructor should have been more clear on at least this issue.

[Bundy]

Bar / stick position determines speed, not power. If flying straight and level in your trike and you apply power, your speed will stay the same and you will begin climbing.

I agree with Dobbs, Ant. Adding power (Thrust) does not increase airspeed because of the extra induced/form drag casused by doing so. A climb will be initiated. To increase the airspeed, you will have to pull the bar towards you (Reducing lift and induced drag by doing so)

So let me know if there is any interest, and what you would want to discuss.
Roger, thanks, cheers.

A great Idea Biggles, perhaps you could start a topic on the 4 forces in flight? From Take off to downwind position? How they affect each other and what control input affects during the same phase? I could do with a "refresher" myself. I am interested to hear your opinion on the effect that your aircraft's inertia has during the crosswind turn?

Great to learn more about our planes

[Biggles of Africa]

Sorry Al, it has been a while, life getting in the way and all that sort of thing, I will jump on it for you, have something out in the early part of Jan.

[D2O]

Hey guys, oldish topic, but maybe I can share an experience I had this morning:
While flying Pinedene route at 5700ft after 9:00 (already warm), I had a sudden and violent left wing drop which took all of my of arm strength to sort out. I was already pulling the bar in at the time to gain more airspeed to keep up with the others, so that did not help, and prior to that, I had a stable 60MPH airspeed with just a little turbulence.
No wing flutter or any indication of a stall. We had a tailwind, hence the increased speed. I was straight and level, and had been so for some time, so what was this, and what could have caused this? Surely it couldn't be a high speed stall, as you need to be turning for that to happen? If it was indeed turbulence, then I certainly don't want that to happen while I'm on finals to land, and no altitude to get me out of it! Damn, it was scary!

Any thoughts?

[Alpha]

Hi D2O,

This does happen fairly often with the type of weather we are having, but what this sounds like to me is you hit a thermal with the one wing. The higher you go, the more wide spread the thermal becomes and the more intense you will feel it. That being said, on approach you should not have the same effect unless you are flying in the sahara at midday.

Can be scary, but best way to embrace it is turn into the thermal, opposite to the dropped wing.

Regards

[Thatchman]

Could be a few reasons but thermal is the likely one.

When Big G trashed is GT last year it was just after take-off and he said it actually felt like one of the wings had fallen off it was such a violent wing drop.

Nothing better to wake you up than some unexpected turbulence

I also hit a few big bumps flying back from Zebula at 12h00 yesterday. Was smooth at 7 500ft but in T shirt and shorts it was too F%#%$# cold.

[Bundy]

Hi Noel, I had exactly the same thing happen to me on Fri coming through Pinedene from the west. Time was about 09h30. Happenned as I crossed over the big warehouses along the N1. Air was cool but then I was suddenly flying through warm and cold bumpy sections and then WHAM... left wing dropped violently.
What actually happened was the right wing was lifted up by a thermal I believe. Straight and level to 60 degree bank in a second or so...

Small brown spot in jocks....correction with full power...and all was well with the world again.

Just gives you one hell of a fright when it happens so quickly.