Which Ultralight??

[Lodewyk Engels]

A friend of mine want's to start flying and is looking to buy an 2 seat ultralight ( I think that's what they're called).
He lives in the Kalahari and will probably use it more often for longer flights - 300nm +, than on the farm.
He's not married - yet -, but will have a passenger most of the time I think, will use a dirt runway(pan), elev. = 2800ft, very hot in summer, etc, etc.
He's looking at the Samba at the moment. Only thing is that R590 000,00 don't make sense to me once I started comparing different aircraft in this class.
What would you guys that know much more than I do recommend??

Samba
Kitfox 7
CTSW
Sting
Dynaero
Technam P96
Jabiru
Bushbaby
?????????

Or should he be wise, buy a good Cherokee 140/180 or a C172 and have R 200 000,00 left for maintanance?? - That's what I would do .

[Smiley]

My personal opinion :D ! I will not buy a R600000-00 aeroplane"sports car" and drive it in the bush where damage will become a daily event. Then I will rather buy a work-horse like a Kitfox or a Rainbow Cheetah!

The other problem being he has 0 hours to his name, rather start with something less expensive and first build on those hours.

I think a Cheetah(582) is priced at about R210000-00 :D :D

[150]

Samba
Kitfox 7
CTSW
Sting
Dynaero
Technam P96
Jabiru
Bushbaby
?????????

Not because I fly a Jabiru 4 seater this is the way to go new R500.000.

2-seater I am not that sure what is the price, but about R 380-400k. Very good back up from the factory.(second hand 2 seater from about 250k)

Kitfox & Bushbaby cheaper but much slower and not full composit like the Jabirus.

I dont know why the Technam, Dynaero and CTSW are much more expensive, but usually it is blamed on the more expensive Rotax engines.

PA28 or C172, can be very expensive, special on overhauls. And NTCA are easier und cheaper to maintain, apart from fuel consumptions.

I know it does not give an answer but better overall view.

[Morph]

Bush Baby, readily available in the R200's very capable, designed for rugged conditions, locally supported, runs on normal fuel, not just AVGAS (although it will run on that as well) as in the case of the 172's, can easily be trailered, has excellent short field landing and takeoff capabilities

[BIG-G]

Then of course you could also look at the flex wing option. Cheaper to run and repair etc. Far less down time if you bend anything. Some of the better trikes easily offer the same and possibly better performance than some of the three axis aircraft mentioned.

[BIG-G]

No Demon. Like a Cobra, Blade, Air Creation or Pegasus Quantum

[BIG-G]

Yes you have a point. The Quik has a 200kg cockpit load and will operate very well at the altitude mentioned. The range and bumps will be no problem. With a cruise of 85mph and top end of over 100mph. Price will be roughly R300 000 all in new.

I guess the big choice is 3 axis or weight shift??

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Budget vs mission. Best match of the 2 and you have answer. Samba is lovely, but pricy comparred to the Jabi's for eg and will do almost same thing. Me I like the bush type planes and am nervious of the plastic u/c.

Don't want to repeat the avcom discussion here, but keep us posted.

PS
Some personal thoughts
I did MPL on Cheetah (582 & 912). 912 is great but overkill and not necessary - Also way more expensive. Nice aerie, cheap and maintenance would be cheap - Local Support.
Technam is nice, but expensive when comparred to balance. I like the RG, but that was R700K last I checked... NAC just taken distibution so support no problem, but me thinks will be expensive.
Kitfox is lighter than Bush Baby, but costs more. Support unknown factor, may be very good I do not know? Is now locally supported I think?
Bush Baby is local and local is lekka. Bit of a tight squeese if couple cr@ps behind. Will get in and out of most and 582 best value for money combo. Some eg's can be had for R170-R200K mark. Finish often a bit lacking, but nothing some cash can't fix.
Sting & Samba are next level (performance, speed, finish etc) maybe only matched by Jabi and Dynaero, but are very expensive comparred to the above... The Samba XL is a real Xcountry machine.
Dynaero is lovery, but even bigger bucks Euro 80,000 I think. (See demons flight report.)
CTSW ?

Couple others to consider
Uma (sp?) R400K
RV4/RV6 if in R500K price range
701 Skyjeep (a bit slow, but can land/take off VERY short)

My first choice
RV4 (Fast, fun and cheap to run),
followed closely by Jabi 4 seater (120kts, cheap, & family can go along for the ride)
and Bush Baby(slow, but very cheap and can be trailered and will land just about anywhere)
but that was for my specific needs. Final choice will be dictated by Mission and Budget......

[glynhall]

Ok lets now look at what Lodewyk actually wanted:

"2 seat ultralight"
- this would be in fact a microlight - a 2 seater aircraft with a Max Take Off Weight under 450Kgs - a 4 seater Jabiru certainly would not fit into this category.

"use it more often for longer flights - 300nm+"
Most fixed wing microlights have at least this range - usually more

"will have a passenger most of the time"
Size does matter when it comes to flying 2 up a lot - some aircraft can be quite cramped - especially if being flown longish distances. Flying a trike (flexwing) for these distances, 2 up, in the thermals of the the Kalahari would certainly get you to sleep well once you had forgotten all the aching muscles. A Pegasus Quick is acknowledged to be only for pretty experienced trike pilots as it is a reported to be a handful if you don't know what you are doing.

"will use a dirt runway(pan), elev. = 2800ft, very hot in summer, etc, etc."
Some of the aircraft below may have a bit of difficulty with fairly rough runways that are found in the Karoo type fields.
Heat with composite aircraft is also a factor to consider - it is a known fact that composite delamination can occur in hot direct sunlight (i.e.excessive heat) and the area you indicate the aircraft will fly in is a prime candidate for this - it could and has happened! Remember a lot of the aircraft you mention in your list are designed to fly in the mild summers of Europe.

"Samba
Kitfox 7
CTSW
Sting
Dynaero
Technam P96
Jabiru
Bushbaby"
To this list I would definitely ad the Titan Tornado S - 2 seater tandem - high lift, all aluminium wing allowing 100m take-off and landings. I would fit the titanium undercarraige for rough strips. It cruises at 100 knots plus and is in the region of R350,000 new. It is supplied in kit form but can be purchased ready-to-fly (with "the more expensive Rotax engines") - at the above price. OK I am biased as I am the SA Titan agent but if we are being honest here some of the brands above and others mentioned, I wouldn't use on rough fields! Collapsing nosewheels etc. etc.
Have a look at http://www.titan.za.net for more info on the Titan - there is a new Tornado S available in the RSA at the moment. (NOT mine BTW!)

"buy a good Cherokee 140/180 or a C172 and have R 200 000,00 left for maintanance??"
For R3 to 400,000 you would be getting a 30-40 year old certified aircraft and whilst there are a lot of them around, I would make very very sure that they have not been mistreated - most have seen service with schools etc. and not every student makes greaser landings! You could be spending the R200,000 rather faster than you wished! Also there is the additional cost of getting and maintaining a PPL over an MPL. (more hours, medicals etc.)
Regards
Glyn Hall
083 44 44 099 (you are welcome to call me if you wish.)

[150]

"2 seat ultralight"

glynhall, I dont agree with the ultralight, it can be in the ML-Category under 450kg. Ultralights are basically composit A/C's. And a Jabi you can get as a 2 seater with 450kg and 540kg and a 4 seater 700kg MTOW. Never mind but you are correct about the temperature limitation on many composit AC's.
The Jabi is 40 deg. C maximum operating temperature.

OK I am biased as I am the SA Titan agent but if we are being honest here some of the brands above and others mentioned, I wouldn't use on rough fields! Collapsing nosewheels etc. etc.

I dont think you are biased, you listed it quite nice the (dis)advantages.
Rough fields, partially agreed, if you land correctly, you should not have any problems with any of the aircrafts. Accidentially I read today through the accident section of DJ&A, and to my surprise plenty Jabis have failture of nose or main undercarrage(But there are plenty jabis out there as well, about 120 or so). Funny some even on Take off Or was the landing before the Take Off a F$ck up I have heard of a collapsed nose wheel on a J450 which tried to avoid the end of the runway tar 850m. But you must have seen the tyre markes before it broke of
I have heard as well that somebody ran out of a 2000m tar runway on landing with the Jabi recently, but with a little bit of training I put it down in about 400m even had less than 300m landings.

I hope I am not biased, because I fly one Your input is very good :D

Demon here we go:

I think you will be starting some heated discussion here

jcvb, you look for speed & fun, and knowing how much you travel around, with budged in mind, the RV4 is the best option for you. Not for me(my wife would divorce me), you can imagine, with my wife suitcase and the baby, and now what I am planing. Agreed everybody looks for his pocket and what is in it, otherwise we would not fly a RV nor a Jabi

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Dynaero also a 4 seater.

The Titan Tornado has impressive numbers. Never seen one and the tandem seating a bit of a problem for social trip, but me I am sold on the centreline seating

PS
How many of these in SA?

PPS
Any of the titan 51's en route to SA?

[Lodewyk Engels]

Thanks alot to all so far!!!
I just spoke to my friend on the phone and he's trying out two gyro's tommorow (RAF & Magni):shock: I don't know anything about gyro's.
Anyway, I'm sure that trikes are not an option. I also told him that despite my lack of knowledge on these, I would not fly from the Kalahari to CT/ JHB in a gyro if I could do it in a fixed wing for the same price!!
Pity the mistakes most of us make in the beginning and the price we pay for it!
A dear friend who helped me into flying told me even before I bought my first plane - a C172 - that he will be waiting for the phonecall from me to tell him that I need more speed and payload etc, etc. It happened just like that - I did'nt believe him!!
I am gathering all the info for my Kalahari friend that I can - much of it here - and I am going to fly him to all the manufacturers in August for test flights. After that it's up to him.
Will keep you posted.

[150]

Thanks alot to all so far!!!
I just spoke to my friend on the phone and he's trying out two gyro's tommorow (RAF & Magni):shock: I don't know anything about gyro's.
Anyway, I'm sure that trikes are not an option. I also told him that despite my lack of knowledge on these, I would not fly from the Kalahari to CT/ JHB in a gyro if I could do it in a fixed wing for the same price!!
Pity the mistakes most of us make in the beginning and the price we pay for it!
A dear friend who helped me into flying told me even before I bought my first plane - a C172 - that he will be waiting for the phonecall from me to tell him that I need more speed and payload etc, etc. It happened just like that - I did'nt believe him!!
I am gathering all the info for my Kalahari friend that I can - much of it here - and I am going to fly him to all the manufacturers in August for test flights. After that it's up to him.
Will keep you posted.

Your friend is definitly not lost to Aviation

[glynhall]

<SNIP>glynhall, I dont agree with the ultralight, it can be in the ML-Category under 450kg. Ultralights are basically composit A/C's.<SNIP>

Ultralights are generally aircraft that are single seater with a MTOW of under around 300kgs (weight from memory?) In the USA they have to conform to FAR103 and don't require a licence or registration.

<SNIP>Never mind but you are correct about the temperature limitation on many composit AC's.
The Jabi is 40 deg. C maximum operating temperature.<SNIP>

Thanks for the confirmation - I wasn't referring to any one brand - the delamination occurs on most, if not all, composites if they are exposed to excess heat which was a factor in the original question.

<SNIP>I dont think you are biased, you listed it quite nice the (dis)advantages.
Rough fields, partially agreed, if you land correctly, you should not have any problems with any of the aircrafts. Accidentially I read today through the accident section of DJ&A, and to my surprise plenty Jabis have failture of nose or main undercarrage(But there are plenty jabis out there as well, about 120 or so). Funny some even on Take off Or was the landing before the Take Off a F$ck up I have heard of a collapsed nose wheel on a J450 which tried to avoid the end of the runway tar 850m. But you must have seen the tyre markes before it broke off<SNIP>

Again I am not referring to any one brand here - I have seen or heard of a number of aircraft that have had problems with rough fields. Most are not designed for rough fields and if it is a factor then one should ask the importer (manufacturer) to make sure that it is capable of handling it and what mods can be added to accomodate it. Anyone who claims they ALWAYS have 'greaser' landings is stretching the truth - and we all know it!

Regards
Glyn

[glynhall]

[quote="jcvb"]
<SNIP>Dynaero also a 4 seater.<SNIP>
Dynaero also make a 2 seater - A friend of mine recently flew one from Cape Town to Belgium - it is designated "MCR" and his was powered by a 80hp Rotax 912 - looks similar to the Sting but with a 'T' tail.

<SNIP>The Titan Tornado has impressive numbers. Never seen one and the tandem seating a bit of a problem for social trip, but me I am sold on the centreline seating

How many of these in SA?<SNIP>

Currently there are 2x Tornado 912's, 2x Tornado 'S' and shortly a Tornado 'SS'. 1 of the Tornado 912's is up in Gauteng - the rest down in the W. Cape. Have a look at the For Sale section of this group to see the Tornado 912 that is currently for sale - low hours.

<SNIP>Any of the titan 51's en route to SA?<SNIP>

I wish! Had a lot of enquiries but so far no one has put up the money. Flew one in the USA (called 'Gunslinger' - the original prototype) - powered by a 912S and cruises at 150mph! Lovely aircraft.

Regards
Glyn