582 and hand pump for difficult starts

[rod smith]

Is it a pretty normal thing among trike pilots to fit a bulb type hand pump into the fuel line between the tank and the mechanical pump to solve a starting problem with 582 motors? I am told that trike pilots quite regularly simply open the carb bowl and top up if the aerie has stood for a week or so, causing the fuel to evaporate.

How realistic is the hand pump solution? It certainly is not feasible on aircraft such as the Cheetah to take off the cowling each time for the first start of the week.The previous owner of the Cheetah told us that he used to pour fuel over the air filters on his cold starts. Any comments ?

Rod Smith

[Duck Rogers]

Is it a pretty normal thing among trike pilots to fit a bulb type hand pump into the fuel line between the tank and the mechanical pump to solve a starting problem with 582 motors? I am told that trike pilots quite regularly simply open the carb bowl and top up if the aerie has stood for a week or so, causing the fuel to evaporate.

How realistic is the hand pump solution? It certainly is not feasible on aircraft such as the Cheetah to take off the cowling each time for the first start of the week.The previous owner of the Cheetah told us that he used to pour fuel over the air filters on his cold starts. Any comments ?

Rod Smith

Pouring fuel over the filters is an old trick....it works.
Fitting a hand pump also works but it has its drawbacks. The rubber goes hard after a while. The best way is to fit a syringe type primer....it primes the carbs with fuel directly into the intakes or you can fit a Facet electrical pump.
There are a few threads on the subject.

[rod smith]

Thanks, DR

I have done a search and read most of the info on the previous posts. In the meantime a marine type hand pump has been fitted as an interim measure. The next few Saturdays will tell whether it cures the problem.

Rod Smith

[Stephan van Tonder]

Get rainbow to fit a diapraghm pump at the tank. Sort the problem once and for all and you have a backup pump. We switch it on for take-off and landing.

[Morph]

Somewhere way back in my greying out memory banks I recall those hand bulbs being not recommended for aircraft. Something about them getting hard and brittle and cracking.

I would go with an inline Facet fuel pump.

[nickjaxe]

The ones for boats can come in either very poor quality or very good, I have one on my British Mainair trike, its available direct from Mainair and seems very good quality,

Over hear in the UK the were some probs with cheapo ones coming apart internally, the one way valves I seem to remember, anyway it totally blocked the fuel flow, be careful.

Nick.

[Duck Rogers]

Thanks Nick........good to hear from you again

[Mogas]

Pouring fuel over the filters is a bad idea, it will give you a rich mixture for the start but trash your filters in the long run.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7853&p=81448&hilit ... tem#p81448
This has been discussed many times before.
A good fuel system design allows you to trap the water before it gets to the carbs, you don't have to take the bowls off at every preflight. It also has a backup pressure source for priming as well as emergency use in flight.
The cheap Facet pump is best for this IMHO

[Pumba]

Rod

If you installed a fuel primer bulb, please put a bypass line over it as well (two t-pieces installed in the fuel line; before and after the bulb and a section of hose to bypass it). It may sound crazy but it still works fine with the bypass.

I have had an engine out due to fuel starvation because of the failure of one of these. I also heard that these things are OK, as long as you use a quality one. Well I installed an expensive Quicksilver one, made in the USA, and it still failed. It has two little plastic one way valves inside, and the one on the outlet side wore out to the point where the plunger got itself stuck into the seat, cutting of the fuel supply. I have also read about several other accounts of engine outs due to these primer bulbs failing.

I had a very hard to start 582, and the little syringe primer pump (available from the Rotax agents) solved this problem for good. A Facet electric pump would also be a good choice.

In the interest of safety, please do not use this primer without a bypass.

Regards
Barry

[rod smith]

Thanks for all the advice above and the concern (Pumba). As it happens, the bulb system was not installed as other cautionaries had also been issued to the partner who aws about to install. Because we have been flying every day this week, there has been no need to "pour fuel" over the air filters. The a/c has started almost on the first kick each time.

We shall re-assess later.

Rod Smith

[nickjaxe]

A quick update on this subject, I did say in my post on this subject that I have a good quality pump on my 503 powered trike,

Well I had my first near engine failure on Sunday just gone, on takeoff at about 200ft on full power my engine was trying to die on me missing very badly, I eased back on the power to find it ran ok and was still climbing I got to 1000ft and tried full power again and the engine near stopped again so reduced power again and continued back to the airfield which was very close by,

I made a normal landing and on shut-down the 1st thing I checked was the carb bowl it was full, then took the filter apart it was clear, I then primed the sys up again with the rubber primer pump to find it did not feel right and on filling the glass bowl on the filter and stopping pumping the filter just emptied its self back to the tank, so I thought one of the one way valves must be stuck in the pump, took it apart to find the outlet valve sticking and partially blocking the outlet, luckily not fully blocking it,

Anyway I left the pump off and with a section on 1/4in metal tube bridged the pipes together and the motor was the as sweet as a nut,

I got onto the aircraft maker the next day to see about a new pump to be told they don't sell them anymore or fit them to there aircraft so I think that says it all,

I wonder what's the bast way for me to prime my fuel sys now I have no pump, I have electric start but I don't fancy spinning the motor try to pump the fuel up, I have been told spinning the prop by had will do the job what do you guys think of that idea as I have not had a chance to try it yet.

Nick.

[Duck Rogers]

Get a primer Nick. Looks like a syringe. Couple of squirts and she starts right up.
These things squirt fuel straight into the inlet throats of the carbs AFTER the carb body, akin to pouring a capful of fuel straight down your car's carb throat.

[Stephan van Tonder]

OR electrical pump which also acts as backup if the main pump fails. Run for a couple of seconds before start - and run during take-off and landing.

[nickjaxe]

Unfortunately to fit kit like that as much as I would like to, over here in the UK would take so much paper work it would be unreal,

I have not had a chance to try the spinning the prop by hand method yet, I wonder just how easy that will be.

Nick.