MPL/PPL licence queries

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C205
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Postby C205 » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:49 am

Just a note tbird: The Cheetah at Witbank is not insured for ab-initio training. :cry:
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Postby FAWGie » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:53 am

FF,

Thank-you for your well researched answers....they certainly make more sense than a lot of the "legal" documentation floating around.....

I have a question and would like your take on it.....

Several pilots out there are probably in the same boat (plane) as myself in the sense that we maintain both a PPL and MPL......

I understand the if you already have a type rating on your MPL and want the same plane rating on your PPL, then you need to retest with a suitably type rated PPL instructor..... Considering CAA's logic about the higher licence covering a lower license (CPL vs PPL, etc....) What is required if you already have an aircraft type on your PPL, but wish to include it on your MPL? Surely the paperwork request should be sufficient and not require re-testing with an MPL type rated instructor? (Reason for rating on MPL is to fly same aircraft type that might have been registers in Z category and not X category)

If you have a type rating on your PPL obviously for a plane regietered in the X category, can you not automatically fly the same plane registered in the Z category as the PPL is a higher license than the MPL?

It sound kinda complicated....and I doubt that many pilots observe the X vs Z registration regarding any specific aircraft before they fly it with an MPL vs PPL....
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Postby Fairy Flycatcher » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:26 am

Hi fawg dawg

I wish we had Cor Beek on this forum :roll: Some of the stuff just does not make too much sense. I agree that people don't check the X or Z-code thing. It could become a problem with insurance, but then again, many of the Z-codes aren't technically microlights either (even if they fit into the MAUW restriction, very few abide by the speed restriction- as I've mentioned before), so insurance underwriters can have a field day if they wanted in any case. (Although the Justice of Administration Act could come in handy here)

You can only fly the aircraft under the licence which you have been signed out to do, so even if it would make perfect sense for your PPL to be the higher licence, if you want to fly the Z-code version of what you fly with an X-code on your PPL, a microlight instructor has to sign you out.

Note that you don't have to be tested by him. Its just a conversion. Once the MPL instructor has satisfied himself that you can fly the aircraft ( the same one he has about 4 hours on while you have done 400hours on under your PPL), he stamps your logbook. Finished.

He should be able to argue that 15-20min was enough. As you have the same aircraft under your PPL, there will be no need for a convex theory exam (provided you did write it when you did your PPL convex)
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Re: Replay

Postby Eduan » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:40 am

t-bird wrote:Try and do your MPL/PPL on the plane that you plan to fly.Especially if it is your first licence. At Witbank there is a school with a "Cheetah " .
You can save money and time if you do it on your own plane.That is if you don't prang it. You would be able to enrol your plane into Aerosud and then do your license at Swartkops
I dont think Aerosud will allow you to enrol your own aeroplane at Aerosud. The instructors at Aerosud signed you out for a MPL as well after your PPL as a bonus saving you time and money.
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Postby Stan » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:52 pm

I seem to have missed something, somewhere. My weightshift M/L has a ZS registration. I just thought that the ZS registrations were full, resulting in an overflow to ZU. #-0 The comments on this page are interesting as I now have to do a 3-axis conversion MPL and a PPL for two aircraft which just have different size engines in.
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Postby Fairy Flycatcher » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:10 pm

Stan wrote:I seem to have missed something, somewhere. My weightshift M/L has a ZS registration. I just thought that the ZS registrations were full, resulting in an overflow to ZU. #-0 The comments on this page are interesting as I now have to do a 3-axis conversion MPL and a PPL for two aircraft which just have different size engines in.
A while ago, NTCA (Non Type Certified Aircraft) had registration numbers which started with ZS, They used up ZS-Vxx and ZS-Wxx, (and maybe a couple of others but I haven't seen yet) in the same way as helicopters got ZS-Rxx and is it ZS-Hxx? :oops: :? These two letters would afford us about 1352 combinations, and it was clearly not enough.

NTCA encompasses micro's, gyro's, ex-military, home-builds, and I think at the moment we have about 3500 of them in total. As the biggest growing section of the aircraft registered, and to see at a quick glance which are certified (ZS-xyz) and which are non-certified (ZU-xyz), they registered the "prefix" -ZU- as the prefix for all South African NTCA.

What we have been talking about here, though, is the type rating code for different aircraft. All Aquillas, no matter what the registration, is for instance a Z159, and all Windlasses a Z127. These are quite easy, as no-one has attempted to register a flex wing aircraft as anything other than a Microlight. (I would love to buy a Quick though and try to get an X-code - as it does not qualify speed wise as a microlight - just for the hell of causing additional confusion :twisted: :twisted: )

My Skyranger, ZU-DAM, type code as a microlight will be Z221, but if I take Skyranger ZU-DAM, and register it as an experimental aircraft it would have a type code of X143 (Don't know what the real X-code is, just as example)
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:40 pm

Stan wrote: I now have to do a 3-axis conversion MPL and a PPL for two aircraft which just have different size engines in.
Hu? :?: :wink:
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Postby FAWGie » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:13 pm

FF,

Now you have me scratching my head.....I have reviewed all my paper work for my aircraft registrations.....There is absolutely no difference in the paperwork for registration and Authority to fly for the RV4 and the Vixen, yet one is in PPL category and the other MPL category...

Then I did a search of the aircraft registrations database....There they list the RV's ICAO designation as "RV4" and the Vixen's as "VIXN"....I cannot find any reference to tell me whether each plane is in the X-class or Z-class....

By the way, I see that they list my Jabiru ICAO type as JAB4, yet my type converison for PPL is listed as JABI......All getting very confusing......
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Postby Fairy Flycatcher » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:29 pm

Biggest problem is, what is being implemented, and what the law is, is just different enough to cause anoyance (both ways - CAA staff pulling at their hair equially hard)

In the mean time they are also working with software which has been written for a final set of ideas, many of them not promulgated yet. At the moment I think SACAA is probably in more chaos than what we suspect when we deal with their new and improved customer interface.

Some of the laws in the transition period are being implemented through exemption (such as Part 24 - Operation of NTCA). Many of the provisions of these laws then can't work because the laws complementing them (such as Part 62 - Recreational Pilots licencing) are not in force yet.

Best bet in the short term, until it is sorted out, is to address each case individually to CAA. It will be as frustrating as trying to work by the book when some of the pages are still blank/missing. Chances are very ngood that two identical cases will be treated differently as well.

Your Jabiru has an X-code or Z-code, and the "file copy" which comes with your licence printout (the one which reads: "this is not a licence", should list it) It could be, however, that no X-code has been allocated yet, in which case they will use some sort of abbreviation, or the whole name, when giving you your rating.
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:12 pm

from Caa website LAI codes? :shock: :?: :wink:

http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center% ... rcraft.htm
LAICode LAIDesc LAIEngType LAINoEng
JABI Jabiru P 1

X189 JABIRU SP 470 P 1

X186 JABIRU SPT-3 P 1
Assume it id, description Piston engine and 1 engine. Anybody know what LAI is?
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:13 pm

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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:18 pm

FAWG Pilot wrote:By the way, I see that they list my Jabiru ICAO type as JAB4, yet my type converison for PPL is listed as JABI......All getting very confusing......
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Postby FAWGie » Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:24 am

demon wrote:I still have a 2001 Notam with a listing of all the Z, X. Y, Q and S codes if you want a copy fawg dawg :?:
Yes please....

I notice that JCVB has changed his name to RV4ker....(much more appropriate, I might add... :wink: )....so, seeing as my name has taken a change from FAWG pilot to "FAWG Dawg" - thanks demon & FF...how do I change my name in the profile section? Or can you do that with superpowers?
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Postby FAWGie » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:15 pm

thanks demon....
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Postby krusty » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:28 pm

demon wrote:Anyone else with an identidy crisis :?: :wink:
Well.......... I've been fielding a lot of questions about exactly WHAT is krusty (or as some like to say, crusty) :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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