MPL/PPL licence queries

[AndyCAP]

I have been researching getting into 3 axis microlight flying for a while now and am quite close to making the first official flight towards a licence.

My initial aim was to do an MPL on a Cheetah since this is the aircraft into which I fit the best (I'm 2m / 6'7.5" tall and weigh 115kg). However my best option for training seems to be Aerosud at Swartkops AFB, since its only 10 km from my work and its the closest field & school to my house. Unfortionately I dont fit in the Jabiru J200 (I jam in solidly between the roof and seat!), so my only other option is to train on the J450. This means however that I must do a PPL. This may not be bad since my long term goal will be to build a RV or similar.

My questions are:

1) If I do a PPL on the J450, what will be required to convert to the Cheetah.

2) Do I then by converting get an MPL as well, or do I then only fly it on a PPL with a rating on the Cheetah.

3) Is there any difference in the conversion if the cheetah is a tricycle UC or taildragger - other than (generally speaking) more hours required to get used to the Taildragger? (i.e. is taildragger a seperate rating?)

4) Does the fact that I will have a PPL restrict me only to microlight aircraft that can be flown with PPL & MPL only (eg Bantam, Ikarus, Cheetah etc)?

5) Would I be able to build my own Cheetah and maintain it as well (old LS1 category?) and yet still fly it on a PPL with type conversion?

6) Is there any (official registration) differentiation between the Cheetah that can be flown with a PPL and one which can only be flown with a MPL?

7) This whole issue of a plane falling in the MPL AND PPL category is quite confusing. can anyone shed some light on this?

(Some have told me that there is no physical difference in the aircraft, but that the one for PPL has to be registered ZS (dont know if this is possible), i.e. factory built with certified motor and has to be maintained by an AMO -i.e. no own maintenance allowed)

At least I passed my Flight medical today, so I'm one step closer to becoming airborne more frequently

Cheers

A

[ZU-JVR]

Andy

You have PM

JVR

[t-bird]

Try and do your MPL/PPL on the plane that you plan to fly.Especially if it is your first licence. At Witbank there is a school with a "Cheetah " .
You can save money and time if you do it on your own plane.That is if you don't prang it. You would be able to enrol your plane into Aerosud and then do your license at Swartkops

[Fairy Flycatcher]

My questions are:

1) If I do a PPL on the J450, what will be required to convert to the Cheetah.

You do a standard conversion. When the instructor is happy, he signs you out. You have to do a conversion exam, which is pretty much just the basic performance specifications of the aircraft, approach speed, stall speed, VNE, MAUW etc. etc.

2) Do I then by converting get an MPL as well, or do I then only fly it on a PPL with a rating on the Cheetah.

You can do either or. If you do the conversion with a microlight instructor, you will have an MPL, if you do it with a PPL instructor, you will have a PPL conversion. At the moment the cost is still the same, either way, as you can fly your Microlights under your PPL, but when the new law comes into effect (a couple of months time) you will have to have both, and pay for both.

3) Is there any difference in the conversion if the cheetah is a tricycle UC or taildragger - other than (generally speaking) more hours required to get used to the Taildragger? (i.e. is taildragger a seperate rating?)

Same licence, seperate rating. No additional fees or anything, do the convex, write the exam, get your logbook stamped, send form to CAA.

4) Does the fact that I will have a PPL restrict me only to microlight aircraft that can be flown with PPL & MPL only (eg Bantam, Ikarus, Cheetah etc)?

No. One trick here is that if you have been converted onto a Bantam (or any other type) with a Z-coded by a PPL instructor, you must fly it under your PPL, and only fly Z-coded Bantams. If you have been converted onto an X-coded Bantam, you must fly it under your MPL, and may only fly X-coded Bantams until you get a PPL instructor to sign you out onto a Z-coded Bantam.

This would be more of a hassle for the guy who flies with his MPL, as he can only fly the Z-coded, but with a PPL, you can fly both types (although you will have to be signed out by different instructors for the same type of aircraft - just depending whether its Z or X )

All very confusing, thought out around a boardroom table by a couple of guys who don't fly anymore

5) Would I be able to build my own Cheetah and maintain it as well (old LS1 category?) and yet still fly it on a PPL with type conversion?

Yes. You can either register it with an X or Z code.

6) Is there any (official registration) differentiation between the Cheetah that can be flown with a PPL and one which can only be flown with a MPL?

7) This whole issue of a plane falling in the MPL AND PPL category is quite confusing. can anyone shed some light on this?

(Some have told me that there is no physical difference in the aircraft, but that the one for PPL has to be registered ZS (dont know if this is possible), i.e. factory built with certified motor and has to be maintained by an AMO -i.e. no own maintenance allowed)

Confusing would be a major understatement! The more you try to figure it out, the worse it gets.

The one gets allocated a Z-code (microlights) the other is allocated an X-code (PPL- same as home builds etc.) Paperwork difference. No difference in maintenance or anything else really. You still fall under Part 24 for its maintenance.

You can not register a Cheetah or whatever as ZS- at the moment, as they are uncertified aircraft. To certify aircraft cost millions, and its totally impractical for the kind of flying most of us do.

You are responsible for your maintenance. You can get an AMO to look after your aircraft(if you can find one with your microlight type on their licence - near impossible), or an AP with a repair/maintenance rating (they don't exist yet), but an AP must still sign the aircraft out every 100 hours or every year, depends which comes first.

At least I passed my Flight medical today, so I'm one step closer to becoming airborne more frequently

Cheers

A

Congrats on the medical. Just fly and leave the BS to your school and instructor. Whatever you want to do, and want to fly, you can find a way to do it. Don't get too involved in the paperwork side. It'll drive you nuts. The days and days spent trying to fix the big holes in the legislation is not worth bringing the stress into your flying.

And well done for asking the questions on the forum. At least you will get some honest answers here, as most of us will have nothing to gain from feeding you nonsense.

[AndyCAP]

Thanks FF (and to JVR for the PM)

Your time and effort is much appreciated! The last thing I want to do is to get lost in paperwork (got enough of that at work!). However I want to prevent having to do a whole lot of double training simply because I was not aware of some beaurocratic BS!

Tbird:

Your advice is also much appreciated. I have considered doing it in my own plane, but my finances (and some practical issues) do not allow it at this moment. I also would like to get flying ASAP!!

Witbank is a bit far for me - it would mean 2 hrs travelling to the field and back and thus limit my air time to weekends. Also for every hour in the air (on average) 2 hours travelling is a bit hectic - not to mention costly. I'd rather pay a bit more and do my training closer to home & work. That way I can squeeze in a lesson before or after work during the week!

Cheers


Andy

[LarryMcG]

Another question!

I recently bought a Jora, and did an MPL conversion, from trike. The plane is licenced as a Z216 type. Could I re-register the plane as a ppl plane, and then fly hours on it towards a ppl licence?

Larry

[Fairy Flycatcher]

Another question!

I recently bought a Jora, and did an MPL conversion, from trike. The plane is licenced as a Z216 type. Could I re-register the plane as a ppl plane, and then fly hours on it towards a ppl licence?

Larry

You could probably do that with little hassle, but remember that you have to then get a PPL instructor with a Jora on his/her licence to sign you out on it, and you will have to do 15 hours minimum with a PPL school, and a PPL flight test to get your PPL on the Jora (sounds ridiculous but thats the way it is)

Contact Andre Swanepoel at CAA for the details on how to get it re-registered as an X-coded aircraft. His cell is 083 635 0037. I have always found him most helpfull, and he goes out of his way to sort things out on the aircraft side. CAA office number is 011-5451000.

You need to then find out which PPL instructors are rated on the Jora, and this can give you vaious levels of headache, depending on the mood at CAA. Ask for Claudia Lackay, she's generally very helpfull as well.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Another question!

I recently bought a Jora, and did an MPL conversion, from trike. The plane is licenced as a Z216 type. Could I re-register the plane as a ppl plane, and then fly hours on it towards a ppl licence?

Larry

Looked at this (not with Jora, but with Skyjeep). Was then told all that is required is to write a letter to CAA and they will change the license for you. (some charges as usual). Problem is than as FF says. you will not be allowed to fly it on MPL. You need to get PPL before you could legally fly the same aerie. (Sounds crasy, but that way it is). Would suggest you get at least to the solo stage of PPL training before you convex it to NTCA type. Discuss the issues with Andre. he may have a solution for you. they are quiet approachable and have always tried to help.

PS
Where you based. What is the Jora performance like with 2 up?

[RV4ker (RIP)]

I dont fit in the Jabiru J200 (I jam in solidly between the roof and seat!), so my only other option is to train on the J450.

Is the SP also too small? (SP is the 120hp 2 seater?) Dare I even ask what happened to the Baby mig's they used to operate?

Also there are some schools in Midrandish area which may be able to help on Thuderbird I think?

Tbird?

PPL gonna cost plenty more than the MPL. I would suggest getting MPL 3 axis on whatever aerie is convinient, then doing convex onto type you prefer. Although training on aerie you want to fly is first prise, the principles of flight remain the same for all. Mate of mine learn't to fly on a beaver and then did convex onto Skyjeep. He saved R30K over the guys who did same on PPL types and today they all fly the same MPL aircraft Sounds like objective is to get into sky sooner rather than later and budget (as with all of us) is a factor.

Think there is a list of ML schools in the area somewhere on the site.

Good luck.

[LarryMcG]

Again

Jora now based in Grahamstown, but a few more being assembled in PE. Also a few in Cape Town area. I think all are flying with 582's, and fly very well. Very good climb rate , 2 up 700fpm or more, at 2500ft agl. Much roomier than the normal Jabiru, very docile stall, so far a great choice.

With regards instructors, I'm based near Port Alfred, and I think they have some sort of fancy instructor, who can be insrutuctor rated on most plane types - someting to do with past experience? So, I could get him converted, and then get him to convert another instructor, who could then instruct me to fly a plane I have 100 hours on? Sounds rather crazy!

The reason this all came up, is that the Sky divers in GHT need someone to help out with flying a C206 for their jumpers, and they would love to have me available at short notice, for their uses. Lots of free hours!

Larry

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Yip. Sounds like you got it all under control. I would say go for it.

Being a meatbomb jockey is not all it cracked up to be(eg pax - ), but I would do it in a wink if given your opportunity. Nothing you can't be taught in next to no time...

[skybound®]

Larry, just remember on the conversion from MPL to PPL you need to complete every single exercise in the PPL sylabus including writing the PPL exams.

Even thought they give you hours credited, they still want you to do every single blerry exercise!

[skybound®]

...., but when the new law comes into effect (a couple of months time) you will have to have both, and pay for both.

FF, since 'we' are assisting with these rules, are we really sure this is what we want? Only issue is the pay part - no problem with all the other requirements?

[Fairy Flycatcher]

...., but when the new law comes into effect (a couple of months time) you will have to have both, and pay for both.

FF, since 'we' are assisting with these rules, are we really sure this is what we want? Only issue is the pay part - no problem with all the other requirements?

I don't know. I only came on the scene when these laws were already written and passed, and got involved in the Technical Standards, for whatever stupid reason.

The idea behind the law is that the various types of flying can regulate themselves more independently. It works well for the Soaring society, the Parachute Association of SA, SAHPA etc. I think it will be great for trikes and gyro's as well, but the issue which always raises its head is this "3-axis blur"

I wouldn't mind doing a PPL to keep my 3-axis flying legal, but don't see that it should be a requirement though. My Dragonfly is a case in point. The HG vario that I have duck-taped to the one tube is my only form of instrumentation. I don't think you'll convince too many PPL instructors to fly her , and you are going to battle to convince me to manage a cockpit and not fly by feel. We have a tremendous grey area here with many of the newer microlights.

The fact is that the law is briliant for the other types of flying, because I am sure that if you say the words "Billow and Roach" to anyone at CAA they will look at you as if you are from another planet. I don't think there is anyone there qualified to assist in keeping trikes, gyros, hang gliders, paragliders or even skydivers safe.

[skybound®]

... am sure that if you say the words "Billow and Roach" to anyone at CAA...

I think they would think you are reffering to them in the second part

Agree on the fly by feel bit. In fact I think even many micros and trikes are far too jacked up nowadays with all the instrumentation options available. Also started out with my HG/PG Brauniger vario strapped to the downtube of the trike. CHT/EGT gauges - what's that? Amazing we never worried about temps back then.