Flying from passenger seat

[Louisvw]

The question is what the complications will be in case of a accident when you as a pilot fly your tandem gyro from the rear seat with your friend who does not have flying experiance in the front seat , I thought I help when mention it to someone that its not legal if he fly from the rear seat and now it looks like I should have kept my mouth shut
Any one that can give their opinion whether I am right or wrong?
If you are not a safety pilot or a Instructor make sure that if you take your friend for a flight in your Gyro and you fly from the passenger side that your or his insurance will pay out in case of a accident ????!!!!
My friend to who I mention it now think Im the bad guy

[lamercyfly]

HI Louis and Demon.

No where in SA airlaw do the words 'left hand seat or right hand seat' or any other seat appear.

The law only states that a pilot in command must have 'full control of the aircraft'.

Now you decide whether you have full control from the back seat or the right hand seat or what-ever seat you want

Do you have access to the the mag switches? Do you have full control of flight controls - pitch, bank and roll? Do you have full control of the steering for taxing? Do you have full control of brakes during taxi? I can go on. But I am sure you get the picture.

I would hate to have to be the attorney defending a pilot who, without training, decided they are equally capable of flying from a seating position that they are not accustomed to.

And by the way, this thing of safety pilots has been coming up far too much for my liking. A student may not fly with a passenger. Only an instructor may accompany a student. So, this business of 'safety pilots' accompanying students is totally illegal!

Later,

[Beaver 550]

I agree, I could not find any mention in the regulations of where the pilot in command should sit.
Normally the standard operating procedure for your organization or the SACAA approved flight manual for the aircraft should state whether you can fly from the front or back. My flight manual states if i fly alone i must fly from the front (C of G limitations) and if there is a second person i can fly from the front or back. To me if you have full control it does not matter whether you fly from the front or back .

[The Agent]

Hi Loiusvw welkom op die site.
I was at your field recently and what a gem of a place you guy's have.
The next thing I want to do is to learn to fly the Bantam from the right side but will only do it with an instructor next to me.
I believe that the hand eye and brain co-ordination must be trained.

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Was under the impression a safety pilot was mainly a type rated second set of eyes for Hood IF training if there was problem? What is purpose of safety pilot in ML environment?

[Thunderboy]

The next thing I want to do is to learn to fly the Bantam from the right side but will only do it with an instructor next to me.
I believe that the hand eye and brain co-ordination must be trained.

This is where problems might occur if one were to jump straight to the right seat and you used to the stick in your left hand or vice versa. Good thing to have an instructor next to you.

Are you going for your instructors Agent?

[No Fly Now]

Which brings one thought to mind. On a trike the PIC (instructor) is sitting at the back, and whilst he may have access to the bar via training bars, and a hand throttle, how many training trikes have dual front-wheel steering? And can the instructor reach the magneto's ICOE?

[GR8-DAD]

Same with side by side aeries - normally most only PIC seat has brakepedals and PTI also only mounted on PIC controls.

To which controls in back of Gyro do you not have access to ?

[DarkHelmet]

It is easy to rig an Aerotrike Safari for dual steer. Most default setups have the Mags on the right below the bum of the pilot. I am comfortable even flicking the mags with Big ole Big D in the front seat. The brakes are another matter. At speed the brakes are actually very useless but a concern. The cruise throttle is removed on a training trike and is fitted for the instructor for throttle control.

My biggest concern is getting to the comm and muting the person in the front seat when he/she starts talking too much!

[DarkHelmet]

And would the instructor use that fancy cruise throttle on that awesome machine demon?

[lamercyfly]

Hi Folk.

My advice to anyone wanting to fly a trike from the backseat is:-

"What For?"

Your view is much more stunning and the total experience much better from the front seat. As far as your passenger is concerned, they are quite happy in the back seat. For a first timer, the front is very daunting.

And, please, instructors are taught how to deal with situtations, and the passenger in front has MUCH more authority over the control bar than the training bars from the back.

About 2 years ago, both the instructor and student killed themselves (actually I doubt the student was to blame, he was after all only a student), when the instructor put the student in the front seat for his first trike flight. You may recall this accident. It happened in Kimberley.

Now I ask you with tears in my ears, why, why, why do you want to put your passenger in the front seat when you KNOW that you do not have full control from the back seat, and even if you rig your trike so that you have full control (and I mean full), you still cannot over-ride the front seat passenger if they decided to lock-up.

So, stay in your front seat dammit.

And tell everybody you know to stay in their damn front seat, unless they are an instructor, and have been taught how to deal with situations (even then, some situations are a foregone conclusion, like the Kimberley accident)

In the interests of safety, and keeping bad stories for our kids fairy-tales and not the newspapers, stay in your front seat and tell your mates.

And yes, instructors have experience, they can for-read situations before they develope, and take the necessary action before things happen. And the instructor student relationship is totally different to the pilot passenger relationship. When I tell my student to do something, he is listening for my commands, and waiting to re-act/respond. Try this with a passenger.....................

I beseech ye all to 'main in the front seat. Yeah brother

Thanks.

[Junkie]

Where do i buy one of these 'damned' front seats....
sorry but this is going off topic and not what LvW was alluding too me thinks - twas about illegal instruction under the guise of flying from the back seat with a 'pax' up front

[lamercyfly]

Hi Junkie

Ja, I me also thinks Louis is protecting his turf (Hullo Louis)

But, the problem goes much further, and I am aware of many folk who have wanted to swop the front seat for the back seat - if you know what I mean

Anyway, about illegal instruction, I must admit that I have not been able to find anything that precludes a normal pilot from giving his buddy basic flying training. Fact is that the the 'buddy' is getting seriously short changed in my opinion. So, if there is anyone out there who can save FF and myself from digging in the archives to find a law which is specific in this regard. Both FF and I only know that as an instructor, you can receive remuneration

The fact of the matter is that instructors - like us- protect our turf, so we do not like it when buddies teach each other, and then come to us and need to be 'un-taught'.

Be that as it may, I still believe it is not a safe practice for buddies to teach each other, and also that it is not a safe practice for a pilot to fly from any seat other than the one which he/she is very comfortable in and has absolute control.

No Ja, I have had my say. Fluit fluit my storie is uit...............

[Learjet]

water onder die brug

[Beaver 550]

Wellcome Dave and thanks. I have experienced the policing on air. I have been in aviation for 30 years and still cannot understand microlight instructors. My worst experience was learning to fly a microlight after i had my PPL for a couple of years.