What's the newest on 4 stroke motors for trikes?

[justin.schoeman]

Justin -- check on globalsources, Sauer advertise the pricing on their engine at this portal - and you will in fact be shocked at the price. FAR less than Revmaster - who in my opinion are expensive for what they are selling.

I could not find anything on globalsource (except Sauer earth moving equipment). I have sent them an email - will see what they say.

You may think the Revmaster is expensive, but it is actually the cheapest of all the VW aero conversions that I know of (once you add in everything that is included in their stanard engine package). Only the Hummel engine comes close. When you get right down to it though, you will battle to build a cheaper VW yourself, unless you have your own machine shop, or you use used components. A basic 2300cc VW long block will set you back USD5,600 from the cheapest american supplier (using el-cheapo chinese parts). And then you need to add ingition, carburettors, prop drive, coolers, etc.

And got the prices from Sauer. UL2400 + dual ignition + oil cooler (to be comparable to the Revmaster default equipment) is €12,700 or USD 17,145 at today's exchange rate. More than double the price of the Revmaster. More expensive even than the current list price of a Rotax 912 in the US...

[Turbo]

Justin -- once again, apples with apples - Sauer is not a beetle engine, revmaster is. Sauer uses materials revmaster do not - apples with apples.

The pricing provided to you is RETAIL -- the pricing on globalsources will not be displayed to you unless you are a member - otherwise it would not be possible to protect the public from seeing distributor/dealer pricing. and pricing starts from 4950EURO --

lastly - apples with apples is Rotax with Sauer - based on the fact that they mount onto rotax mounts, and make the same power (more than revaster) as Rotax - and if you can find me a brand new (all equipment included) Rotax 100HP for 17K USD-- I will take 3 units and I know of someone (ZU-JAY) who will take 1 pcs right now --

So please facilitate this ASAP --- to be honest, I think not, as the price of the Rotax912 100HP is over 24000USD ---

[justin.schoeman]

You say apples-to-apples, but want to compare the wholesale price of the Sauer to the retail price of everything else. If you can source a Sauer at that price, I will also buy one immediately.

I got the Rotax pricing here: http://www.titanaircraft.com/engines.php - not sue how up-to-date it is though. I did compare it to the 912 though, not 912S, as from the torque curves, you will need to operate closer to 80hp, unless you use a VP prop.

The engineering diagrams they sent show stock VW engine mounts - not Rotax mounts.

And the Revmaster is about as much a VW as the Sauer is. The Revmaster has a VW case and cam bearings. The rest of the parts are custom made either by, or for Revmaster.

I am not saying that the Sauer is a bad engine. It is a very good engine, with a very good reputation. But I would much rather buy a Jab 2200 for a few thousand dollars less... If you could sell the Sauer at E5k, it would be awesome.

[mono]

sure Rotax is king at the moment, but thats not to say that there arent any other good reliable options out there. The HKS i will never purchase, they are a ripp off in the automotive game and for a half and engine with a turbo on, they are still a ripp off. Their automotive products are junk, and its the same company that manufactures the aviation products, i personally have had experence with their automotive products and all our customer who share the experience will advise stay far away!

Rotec radial engines (sure depening what plane you fly) are also awesome engines, but expensive. I like the idea of the pricing for the verner option, BUT this must be reliable. There are referrences who use the engines in the USA, who i would contact first, but at the end of the day think about it from a business point of view - a company would not invest more and more money into developing additional engines (verner is now on 6 kinds of engines running, in the market) when you not selling the first one.

So far from what i could find, no failures, poor service related issues or anything else -- maybe not enough of them in the market, who knows. Id be keen to try one, then again i am normally the first to try most things (just look at my brakes and 914 project .... )

BMW started out making aircraft engines, so i would also consider that, but the 1200cc GS engine is VERY rough, especially when coming onto throttle, I know, i own a 1200GAS adventure, and when you rev the engine, the whole bike moves from the torque -- imagine this in a light plane like a cheetah.... mmmhh

It is a fact the BMW (moto) the non-uniformity of a boxer has something to desire this, only at the lower range of RMP. In order to rectify this problem, Take Off , the German supplier of the BWM aero engines went with a drum type of clutch whereby engages the propeller above torsional vibration that could be a problem. Never the less, using a drum centrifugal type of clutch has its problems, they ‘bite in’ and get very hot and don’t last very long, moreover, are expensive to replace. We went a step ahead, the same principle, and thinking that no one would start his car in gear we implemented a diaphragm clutch controlled by a hand leaver from the cockpit and can be softly feathered in at a desired RPM. The hydraulic master cylinder has two functions lever, 1) engage and disengage the propeller and 2) brake the aircraft. In case of engine out, the propeller will windmill.

Unlike Take Off, you are stuck with their PSRU, our bell-housing was designed to take a PRSU of your choice, the SPG range will fit or we have our on D2 PRSU and in some weeks to come it will be offered with a belt drive, the geared boxes can be mounted 12 or 6 o’clock. The flywheel, in order not to upset the engine balance is made from alloy and has the same weigh of the OM clutch. Connection between engine and PSRU is via a Centaflex and shafts are supported by 3 bearings. We won’t be selling the engines, I believe this can be purchased locally thus cutting the costs. We have tested extensively this arrangement on a dynamometer more than 10.000 clutch in and out proved the nowadays that hydraulic clutch trust bearing and the automotive clutch will outlast any other type of clutch.
For more information please contact http://www.flyingfrontiers.com Tel: +27 33 2399813 Mobile: +27 82 4590760 for more information.

Thanks for your attentions

[Turbo]

I agree with that -- the BMW engines are reliable as the old 1400 Nissan bakkies!! And they make power, reliably, and cost effectively too.

Parts are easy to come by -- but its a pity that they done make an aviation specific engine.....

[mono]

I agree with that -- the BMW engines are reliable as the old 1400 Nissan bakkies!! And they make power, reliably, and cost effectively too.

Parts are easy to come by -- but its a pity that they done make an aviation specific engine.....

Not wrong, but usually people prefer keep their feet on the ground and drive a car and, there were the money is and limited liabilities . Automotive manufacturers are not interested into aviation business, there is but, a exemption of two Japanese automotive manufacturers dabbing in China in a very small scale with a German company in to developing a limited aircrafts engines. One of those engines are already implemented in China with great success, now remains to be seen if the second of it will be successful. Only time will tell…

[Jean Crous]

Sauer versus Revmaster... ..... I saw the Sauer up close at Aero-Friedrichshafen in 2012 and must say it is a nice engine. The Revmaster is in my opinion better value for money. Revmaster have a counter weighted cranckshaft cast in 4340 chromolly that uses a split rear main bearing , and has a flange whereto the custom flywheel bolts.They have also have the thrust bearing in the front ( second main from the front) Their " I-beam " conrods are also 4340 chromolly.
The cranck has a left-hand thread to the bolt that holds the hub-flange. They also use a no :4 main bearing in the front, cast in bearing aluminium, that is 4 inches long to take up gyroscopic torque on the engine case and the hub-flange. The cam is custom cast and ground for aviation use, the cylinders are custom made as they are longer than racing/aftermarket VW cylinders. The cylinder heads are their own design and casting using 356 aluminium with some chromium content. The heads have a hemispherical combustion chamber with dual spark plugs. The hubflange is also 4340 chromolly and is hardened after machinig. Dual 20 amp alternators , quad CDI sytem that makes up two entirely separate self energising ignition systems. The engine runs even if there is no battery power.
With their dyno testing they use four stubby exhausts, which is the worst for performance, but get an HONEST 85 HP at 3600 ft above sea level. With their performance 4 into 1 flowed exhaust system the say it is good for a modest 4 HP extra. We all know that a good exhaust sytem can make 8 to 10 % difference.
So that gives an HONEST 89 HP .
As Justin Schoeman said , Revmaster is as far from a VW engine as one can get Best regards
Jean Crous
072 6716 240

[Turbo]

Sauer versus Revmaster... ..... I saw the Sauer up close at Aero-Friedrichshafen in 2012 and must say it is a nice engine. The Revmaster is in my opinion better value for money. once again you are not comparing apples with apples - revmaster is a glorified VW engine with common Chinese made parts inside Revmaster have a counter weighted cranckshaft every crankshaft in the world to date is counterweighted cast in 4340 chromoly 4340 is not chromoly, it contains 0.82% chrome in the steel, which is a medium carbon steel but we wont get into that that uses a split rear main bearing , and has a flange whereto the custom flywheel bolts.They have also have the thrust bearing in the front ( second main from the front) Their " I-beam " conrods are also 4340 chromolly. the I-beam rods are the most commonly used conrod in every engine in manufacture today - if they had an H-beam or Pauter style rod, then that would be something to list as feature, not a common I-beam rod
The cranck has a left-hand thread to the bolt that holds the hub-flange. They also use a no :4 main bearing in the front, cast in bearing aluminium, that is 4 inches long to take up gyroscopic torque on the engine case and the hub-flange. that's nothing to brag about, especially when the engine rotates in a left hand direction .. oops....The cam is custom cast and ground for aviation use,a camshaft does not have grind options based on aviation or road use -- its grind is determined by the lift versus overlap in relation to the crankshaft position in order to make sure scavenging is secured at a specific engine RPM the cylinders are custom made as they are longer than racing/aftermarket VW cylinders. a longer stroke is a very bad thing with a high revving engine, the rod ratio with a long stroke aswell as the frictional wear is increased dueto the length of the travel material on material - secondly with an overstroked motor, the inertia and momentum of the heavy internals carry past the moment of direction change at TDC and BTDC --- BAD BAD BAD The cylinder heads are their own design and casting using 356 aluminium with some chromium content. there is no such thing as 356 grade aluminium, ALL aluminium will start with 4... numbers. The chrome added is called a trace element, and this will be present in no more than 0.15 - 0.35% in aluminium. Chrome is added to precipitate and allow hardening. Now there are MUCH cheaper and better elements to add that have similar melting points - chrome and aluminium melt at opposite ends of the thermal scale - The chrome will precipitate out of the material when casting, and cause all sorts of machining problems ... and due to the nature and price of chrome will DEFINATELY NOT be found in this cylinder head! absolute nonsense! The heads have a hemispherical combustion chamber with dual spark plugs.the HEMI head is a patented idea EXCLUSIVE to MOPAR - I seriously doubt that. The hubflange is also 4340 chromolly and is hardened after machinig. any hard wearing part in line for fatique type work will be hardened - ALL engines have thispart hardened Dual 20 amp alternators , quad CDI sytem that makes up two entirely separate self energising ignition systems. The engine runs even if there is no battery power. Sauer, Rotax, and almost all other engines have the exact same setups -- including the cheap Chinese engines - nothing new
With their dyno testing they use four stubby exhausts, which is the worst for performance,say what???? where have you got this information from?? a straight cut pipe out the engine is PERFECT for performance!!! adding a silencer is what you don't want to do - I can get quite technical in this line too if youd like, but I think we getting off topic here... but get an HONEST 85 HP at 3600 ft above sea level. With their performance 4 into 1 flowed exhaust system the say it is good for a modest 4 HP extra. We all know that a good exhaust sytem can make 8 to 10 % difference.
So that gives an HONEST 89 HP . -- on whos dyno, with what SLCF correction factor, with what software SAE1749, ISO5439, or which standard of power and torque measurements? --
As Justin Schoeman said , Revmaster is as far from a VW engine as one can get Best regards Absolutely it is nothing short of identical to VW engine, that's why they using the VW design, block, and copies of the VW components .. at the end of the day this is a VW glorified with commonly made and available parts from China - there is nothing that sells this engine as being innovative, special, abnormally powerful, or anything else that warrants its hefty price. I know of a number of VW beetle enthusiasts than build the STOCK VW engine into 100HP street cars, which run for 50-100 000kms with no hassles what so ever ... you can only expect to have something MUCH more powerful and reliable with the listed components above -- but where is the power? a tiny Rotax (yes not apples with apples) less than half the size makes more than 10% more power than the Revmaster ... Sauer is expensive in relation to revmaster, but it is light years ahead of revmaster clean and clear, and comparable to ROTAX (making it affordable in comparison) - rotax is stupid money, but light years ahead of revmaster - ROTEC RADIALS are full CNC machined engines with more power and come with all accessrories and cost less than ROTAX (is that affordable? in relation and comparison to Rotax YES IT IS) --- point is there are so many engine choices out there, its what each person can afford based on the features and most importantly the backup and parts availability for the engine that will make that persons decision. - horses for courses but facts and facts - and I have listed just some above -- just my 1 cent worth.
Jean Crous
072 6716 240

[justin.schoeman]

Seems you really have something against Revmaster, Turbo... But you really should do more research before you start your rant. Revmaster doesn't use Chinese parts (or not many). Almost all of their parts are either manufactured in-house, or at local american factories. Almost none of the parts are 'copies' of the original VW, as none of the original VW parts were made to these dimensions. [No different from the Sauer, which is also a 'copy' of the VW.]

The cam grind is optimised for aviation use, as it is designed for a torque band in the 2300-2800RPM range (unlike the off-the shelf VW cams that make their best torque around 3600RPM.

The stroke is longer, yes - but the bore/stroke ratio is still pretty much the same, as the bore is increased at the same time. The rod ratio is in fact better, as the rods were lengthened more than the stroke. [Bore and stroke are the same as Sauer.]

Rather than try to machine a chinese crank to work, they have their own crank forged, so they can use bigger journals and bearings, and machine them for the left hand thread, without having to drill out the whole thing, and weaken it. You may not like 4340, but there has never been a Revmaster crankshaft failure - so obviously the material is more than adequate for the task.

The four digit aluminium alloy numbers are used for a specific range of alloys. 356 is a real aluminium alloy.

Straight pipes are not perfect for performance. A properly tuned 4 into 1 will scavenge a lot better than straight pipes. They said nothing about adding a silencer (which would, indeed reduce power).

The engine may not seem innovative to you, but it seems you have not really looked at VW designs, and the history of them. Revmaster has been in the game the longest of all the VW aftermarket manufacturers. Many of the innovations were developed by them, and copied by others (like the #4 bearing - which has even been copied by Limbach and Sauer). Never mind all the other tweaks, like moving the thrust bearing, flanged flywheel fittings, etc...

As to the power - yes, you can get 100hp out of a stock VW - but at very high revs, so you need to add 13kg worth of reduction drive before you can turn a prop. For direct drive at prop RPMS, you are stuck at the same power levels. Which is why all the VW manufacturers (including Sauer and Limbach) have pretty much the same power ratings for the same bore and stroke.

And why do you say the Revmaster price is hefty? You can put together a 94x84 VW long block for around USD5000 using cheap chinese parts, and then you need to start with custom cranks, prop flanges and accessories.

All in all, the Revmaster R2300 and Sauer S2400 are pretty much directly comparable in terms of weight and performance. Both will be good replacements for a Rotax 912 - with the advantage of a 5kg saving in total firewall forward weight (yes, they are indeed lighter than the Rotax when you calculate the full FWF weight).

This makes the Revmaster R2300 the most affordable 4 stroke option at the moment, by quite a margin.

[JvTonder]

I am not getting in the middle off this debate as I know to little but will say this, the Revmaster is an excellent motor specially if you consider the price and we never had a problem with ours and it's years old. Also they have a proven track record, just like the overly expensive Rotax, wonder who started making aviation motors first, Justin, Jean, Chris, anybody know?

Jaco

[Turbo]

Seems you really have something against Revmaster, Turbo... But you really should do more research before you start your rant. Revmaster doesn't use Chinese parts (or not many). Almost all of their parts are either manufactured in-house, or at local american factories. Almost none of the parts are 'copies' of the original VW, as none of the original VW parts were made to these dimensions. [No different from the Sauer, which is also a 'copy' of the VW.] nope nothing against revmaster at all, and no rant either -- that you dont want to see all im doing is explaining facts for facts - the parts ARE made in china, along side the procomp, speedpro and BC conrods -- I HAVE SEEN THEM MYSELF LAST YEAR NOVEMBER AT AUTOMECHANIKA - EVERYTHING is outsourced to China when it comes to castings, materials and other, otherwise the pricing for local manufacturing would be far too high! secondly - my research and knowledge on this topic far exceeds most and in this case, please examine the block and other outside components ASWELL AS the oiling system aswell as almost everything else In this engine -- its VW -- fact! Regards Suaer - I never knew VW had a 700cc engine.... I never knew that they made a water cooled version .... VW I think not! - once again nothing but FACT.

The cam grind is optimised for aviation use, as it is designed for a torque band in the 2300-2800RPM range (unlike the off-the shelf VW cams that make their best torque around 3600RPM. I suggest you read my comment about cams above, you might see your contradiction -- secondly what happened to the overlap (scavenging effect when grinding the cam to operate at such a low RPM level -- GONE -- that's what. Hence my comment about the pipes -- which we will come to later

The stroke is longer, yes - but the bore/stroke ratio is still pretty much the same, same as VW yes.as the bore is increased at the same time. yes obviously so that they get the larger 2300cc - correct The rod ratio is in fact better, as the rods were lengthened more than the stroke. is that why it makes so little power? Is that also why the TBO is so low? the rod ratio on this engine is not good for longevity, nor is it good for ultimate performance, let me explain. the short MOVEMENT of the piston and rod lowers torque and power, AND extends the operating RPM band - which is not used, therefore producing the tiny power output that the engine does. For example - the F1 engines have a 20mm stroke and rev to over 20 000RPM in some cases but make hardly any power in comparison to lets say a beefy 598CI V8 ---- BUT because this is a glorified VW motor, they would not have gone and re-invented the wheel to make a new engine ... or else it would have been comparable (and expensive) to the Rotax, instead it is a glorified VW beetle engine[Bore and stroke are the same as Sauer.] same as they Sauer -- which one of the 5 models?

Rather than try to machine a chinese crank to work, they have their own crank forged,I know -- IN CHINA -- I have seen it personally so they can use bigger journals and bearings, and machine them for the left hand thread,haha left hand thread on a left hand rotating component... Ill use a silly example - on a turbocharger where the rotation is clockwise, and the nut tightens anticlockwise and vice versa. without having to drill out the whole thing, and weaken it.that's no engineering marvel, even the old 1928 ford T-bucket engines threaded the output shaft, but they were a step ahead of Revmaster and many other engine manufacturers too -- they cold roll their threads - and revmaster cut them You may not like 4340, but there has never been a Revmaster crankshaft failure - so obviously the material is more than adequate for the task.on the contrary, I love 4340 for its intended purpose - IT IS NOT SUCH A FANTASTIC FEATURE AS JUSTIN PUT IT, instead its the norm, of which even the Renault Twingo uses this for its crank and rods.... -- I have always loved 4340 - my own brand of con-rods I manufactured on my own CNC machine in 2003 were made from 4340, and the heat treatment was done incorrectly, my mistake, and school fees learned check below for pics - and if you look closely you will see the crack on the outside of the side journal case of the rod due to incorrect hardening -- and to comment on the revmaster failure aspects -- it CANT fail, its overdesigned, I have not commented against their design at all -- but that engine doesn't make enough power to pull itself out of a wet paper bag, so obviously it will never fail.... the question you should be asking is this - why is the TBO so low compared to Rotax 2000hours - aswell as ROTEC, SAUER, VERNON etc so much longer, with SMALLER ENGINES? - I can tell you why -- the overall design of the revmaster engine is lacking because it is a glorified VW beetle engine

The four digit aluminium alloy numbers are used for a specific range of alloys. 356 is a real aluminium alloy. I also cast my own grade of aluminium, its called LION .... or was it cheetah -- hehe im getting sarcastic now, as without a composition or specification the numbers 356 mean absolutely nothing. ALL aluminium materials have a designation - like AISI, ASTM etc, and most of them are American products. some have called their aluminium 2123ally -- which has no OFFICIAL designation in a metallurgists handbook or such -- here is an example - Ferrari recently "invented a new material called CARBOTANIUM - its the threaded weave of titanium and carbon fibre -- this also does not exist in any documented handbook as it is NOT accepted as an official material. So neither is my LION ally either - but who says its not strong - who says it isn't porous either?? Unless the material has an official designation/specification, it cannot be measured, tested, or controlled in a QC format -- yet another reason why Revmaster is so much cheaper than rotax -- which is a good thing -- or is it?

Straight pipes are not perfect for performance. A properly tuned 4 into 1 will scavenge a lot better than straight pipes. They said nothing about adding a silencer (which would, indeed reduce power).HAHAHAHA how many engines have you built? How many have you tuned on an engine dyno? How many of these engines have you set cam timing on? How many engines have you requested a SPECIFIC grind cam for a specific engine?? I have done all of the above more than 20 times in my life, and if you switch on the TV and you see the local T-class production series race cars, driven by Formato, Prinsloo, Nathan, Pepper etc -- I personally built every single one of those turbochargers on every single one f those cars, and continue to do so every year - I have also been involved with two of these teams in developing cams and other means of making HP to overcome the 36mm restirctors placed in front of the turbos -- I believe I know a tiny little bit about cams, and maybe engines too.... in this specific revaster engine - they HAD to grind a custom cam because the engine has to LABOUR along at such a low RPM (that's why they have low TBO's - rich mixtures due to a labouring engine!!) and because of this the cam had to operate in the low RPM band, hence there will be absolutely no power difference between a staged diameter exhaust or a straight cut pipe out of this engine (read above for the disappearing act in the overlap - think V-tec 9000RPM and the CAM that the V-tec controlled ... get my drift?) its like fitting a performance pipe to your lawnmower - no increase in power, revs too low and cam grind will not allow scavenging! - second to this - how many performance pipes do you see being fitted to Continentals, Lycomings -- hardly any because they yield almost no performance increase - and these are BIG engines!

The engine may not seem innovative to you, but it seems you have not really looked at VW designs, and the history of them. Revmaster has been in the game the longest of all the VW aftermarket manufacturers. Oh so it is a VW engine ... OK Im with you Many of the innovations were developed by them, and copied by others (like the #4 bearing - which has even been copied by Limbach and Sauer). Never mind all the other tweaks, like moving the thrust bearing, flanged flywheel fittings, etc...Hey im not saying that revmaster is a bad engine at all -- BUT in comparison to others, it barely holds its own. Every engine has its place, but my initial comment which led astray here - was that Rotax is a rip off and they are -- and that comparing apples with apples, surely there should be alternatives VALUE FOR MONEY -- Revmaster has its place, but not in my hangar, as I know a little bit more than the next guy about these components and in my opinion (opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one) I think they suck.... That's not to say I would buy a Sauer either, I was simply using Sauer as a comparison that's all. Hell we can talk about Vernon too if you like - and that ENTIRE ENGINE is manufactured by Jinchecg in China -- yet its TBO is so high ..... mmmhhh 4340 -- full up!

As to the power - yes, you can get 100hp out of a stock VW - but at very high revsout of a 1600cc engine with lightened components.... etc etc, so you need to add 13kg worth of reduction drive before you can turn a prop. For direct drive at prop RPMS, you are stuck at the same power levels. Which is why all the VW manufacturers (including Sauer and Limbach) have pretty much the same power ratings for the same bore and stroke.i think not - Sauer makes ALOT more power 115HP to be exact out of the smaller engine (yes turbo) and a lot more torque with the same weight ... AND its watercooled.... go figure

And why do you say the Revmaster price is hefty? You can put together a 94x84 VW long block for around USD5000 using cheap chinese parts, and then you need to start with custom cranks, prop flanges and accessories.no sir - not cheap Chinese parts - Procomp, BC, or even Carrillo -- OOPPS they made in china.... and YES I can - in fact ii can build you a BILLETT (from top to bottom) VW long block for LESS than $5000.00 but who in their right mind would spend that money to make the power that a brand new 4 cyl 2 stroke engine with ALL components included will make?

All in all, the Revmaster R2300 and Sauer S2400 are pretty much directly comparable in terms of weight and performance. Both will be good replacements for a Rotax 912 - with the advantage of a 5kg saving in total firewall forward weight (yes, they are indeed lighter than the Rotax when you calculate the full FWF weight). what about TBO -- ?? Sauer is longer, therefore less money - furthermore, ROTAX further life still -- MORE savings.....

This makes the Revmaster R2300 the most affordable 4 stroke option at the moment, by quite a margin.taking into account the TBO and costs to rebuild the revmaser its NOT cheaper by a long shot. Sauer is, and performs ALOT better than the revmaster, and is available water cooled, and longer TBO, and turbocharged also -- more options, german engineering, long TBO, proven in many oem applications, etc etc

[Turbo]

I am not getting in the middle off this debate as I know to little but will say this, the Revmaster is an excellent motor specially if you consider the price and we never had a problem with ours and it's years old. As I said, im not saying revmaster is a bad engine - absolutely not, BUT in my OPINION I don't like beetle engines, and wont opt for it personally -- I never said its not reliable, in fact it is proven ... its just not for meAlso they have a proven track record, just like the overly expensive Rotax, wonder who started making aviation motors first, Justin, Jean, Chris, anybody know?

Jaco

as far as I know BMW and rolls Royce were first - hense the BMW badge is the prop in the sky ....

[justin.schoeman]

This makes the Revmaster R2300 the most affordable 4 stroke option at the moment, by quite a margin.taking into account the TBO and costs to rebuild the revmaser its NOT cheaper by a long shot. Sauer is, and performs ALOT better than the revmaster, and is available water cooled, and longer TBO, and turbocharged also -- more options, german engineering, long TBO, proven in many oem applications, etc etc

Before I respond to the rest, which Sauer engine are you talking about? In the initial post you mention S2100, but that is air cooled. The only water cooled Sauers I know of are their two strokes?

They have an M800 project which will be a 4 stroke 2 cylinder water cooled engine - but that is not ready for the market yet.

Please provide a link to the specific engine you are talking about.

[mono]

Sauer versus Revmaster... ..... I saw the Sauer up close at Aero-Friedrichshafen in 2012 and must say it is a nice engine. The Revmaster is in my opinion better value for money. once again you are not comparing apples with apples - revmaster is a glorified VW engine with common Chinese made parts inside Revmaster have a counter weighted cranckshaft every crankshaft in the world to date is counterweighted cast in 4340 chromoly 4340 is not chromoly, it contains 0.82% chrome in the steel, which is a medium carbon steel but we wont get into that that uses a split rear main bearing , and has a flange whereto the custom flywheel bolts.They have also have the thrust bearing in the front ( second main from the front) Their " I-beam " conrods are also 4340 chromolly. the I-beam rods are the most commonly used conrod in every engine in manufacture today - if they had an H-beam or Pauter style rod, then that would be something to list as feature, not a common I-beam rod
The cranck has a left-hand thread to the bolt that holds the hub-flange. They also use a no :4 main bearing in the front, cast in bearing aluminium, that is 4 inches long to take up gyroscopic torque on the engine case and the hub-flange. that's nothing to brag about, especially when the engine rotates in a left hand direction .. oops....The cam is custom cast and ground for aviation use,a camshaft does not have grind options based on aviation or road use -- its grind is determined by the lift versus overlap in relation to the crankshaft position in order to make sure scavenging is secured at a specific engine RPM the cylinders are custom made as they are longer than racing/aftermarket VW cylinders. a longer stroke is a very bad thing with a high revving engine, the rod ratio with a long stroke aswell as the frictional wear is increased dueto the length of the travel material on material - secondly with an overstroked motor, the inertia and momentum of the heavy internals carry past the moment of direction change at TDC and BTDC --- BAD BAD BAD The cylinder heads are their own design and casting using 356 aluminium with some chromium content. there is no such thing as 356 grade aluminium, ALL aluminium will start with 4... numbers. The chrome added is called a trace element, and this will be present in no more than 0.15 - 0.35% in aluminium. Chrome is added to precipitate and allow hardening. Now there are MUCH cheaper and better elements to add that have similar melting points - chrome and aluminium melt at opposite ends of the thermal scale - The chrome will precipitate out of the material when casting, and cause all sorts of machining problems ... and due to the nature and price of chrome will DEFINATELY NOT be found in this cylinder head! absolute nonsense! The heads have a hemispherical combustion chamber with dual spark plugs.the HEMI head is a patented idea EXCLUSIVE to MOPAR - I seriously doubt that. The hubflange is also 4340 chromolly and is hardened after machinig. any hard wearing part in line for fatique type work will be hardened - ALL engines have thispart hardened Dual 20 amp alternators , quad CDI sytem that makes up two entirely separate self energising ignition systems. The engine runs even if there is no battery power. Sauer, Rotax, and almost all other engines have the exact same setups -- including the cheap Chinese engines - nothing new
With their dyno testing they use four stubby exhausts, which is the worst for performance,say what???? where have you got this information from?? a straight cut pipe out the engine is PERFECT for performance!!! adding a silencer is what you don't want to do - I can get quite technical in this line too if youd like, but I think we getting off topic here... but get an HONEST 85 HP at 3600 ft above sea level. With their performance 4 into 1 flowed exhaust system the say it is good for a modest 4 HP extra. We all know that a good exhaust sytem can make 8 to 10 % difference.
So that gives an HONEST 89 HP . -- on whos dyno, with what SLCF correction factor, with what software SAE1749, ISO5439, or which standard of power and torque measurements? --
As Justin Schoeman said , Revmaster is as far from a VW engine as one can get Best regards Absolutely it is nothing short of identical to VW engine, that's why they using the VW design, block, and copies of the VW components .. at the end of the day this is a VW glorified with commonly made and available parts from China - there is nothing that sells this engine as being innovative, special, abnormally powerful, or anything else that warrants its hefty price. I know of a number of VW beetle enthusiasts than build the STOCK VW engine into 100HP street cars, which run for 50-100 000kms with no hassles what so ever ... you can only expect to have something MUCH more powerful and reliable with the listed components above -- but where is the power? a tiny Rotax (yes not apples with apples) less than half the size makes more than 10% more power than the Revmaster ... Sauer is expensive in relation to revmaster, but it is light years ahead of revmaster clean and clear, and comparable to ROTAX (making it affordable in comparison) - rotax is stupid money, but light years ahead of revmaster - ROTEC RADIALS are full CNC machined engines with more power and come with all accessrories and cost less than ROTAX (is that affordable? in relation and comparison to Rotax YES IT IS) --- point is there are so many engine choices out there, its what each person can afford based on the features and most importantly the backup and parts availability for the engine that will make that persons decision. - horses for courses but facts and facts - and I have listed just some above -- just my 1 cent worth.
Jean Crous
072 6716 240

Hey turbo ..Walks like a duck, quacks as a duck and looks like a duck, is a duck..? Well.. is a Chinese well-dressed duck but still a nice VW duck. Sauer and Revmaster, VW , VOLVO , Toyota and many others have their cranks are made in China to their specifications, unless they fly, there is no such thing as an aviation camshafts, you got that right, the rest is Mexican Mariachi music. Most of the ‘high quality performance’ one can buy in the west comes from China at huge mark ups with the label made in USA. Since we manufacture from China, I would like to make something clear: it’s not Chinese fault rubbish is produced, blame the western buyer getting the cheapest ‘dreck’ to compete with the opposition. The Chinese are learning, just like the Japanese, refusing to manufacture cheap, the downturn of it prices will increase and the cheap stuff will migrate to other developing countries.

[Jean Crous]

What a joke this thread has turned into, becomming a bit like an Avcom discussion . As for the lefthand thread to the hubflange bolt of the Revmaster..........when standing in front of the aircraft , the prop turns to YOUR right , BUT to the left of the aircraft. All this being said the hubflange bolt is fastened OPPOSITE DIRECTION of that to which the engine turns.
Ek se niks verder nie...............