What's the newest on 4 stroke motors for trikes?

[justin.schoeman]

http://www.sauer-flugmotorenbau.de check this out -- interesting and affordable too.

You have an interesting definition of 'affordable'... €18,000 for the bigger engines...

[Turbo]

http://www.sauer-flugmotorenbau.de check this out -- interesting and affordable too.

You have an interesting definition of 'affordable'... €18,000 for the bigger engines...

Justin - clearly you don't know what Rotax charges for a BARE engine -- without oil cooler, radiator, reservoir etc its touching R300 000.00 (26750.00 euro to be exact)

Keep one thing in mind -- Why does Rotax have so many bulletins? Improvements or crap engineering? I think the later!

Monopoly spells RIP OFF

[justin.schoeman]

http://www.sauer-flugmotorenbau.de check this out -- interesting and affordable too.

You have an interesting definition of 'affordable'... €18,000 for the bigger engines...

Justin - clearly you don't know what Rotax charges for a BARE engine -- without oil cooler, radiator, reservoir etc its touching R300 000.00 (26750.00 euro to be exact)

Keep one thing in mind -- Why does Rotax have so many bulletins? Improvements or crap engineering? I think the later!

Monopoly spells RIP OFF

Yup, but it is is still basically the same as a Revmaster R2300, which is available from the local dealer at half the price of the Sauer.

[Turbo]

Justin - there are many differences between the Rvmaster engine and the Sauer -

1) Sauer do not use the same crank
2) Sauer crank is knife-edged
3) Sauer crank is forged moly - not 4340 steel (2000TBO)
4) Sauer engine makes 115HP out o their 2100cc engine - Revmaster makes 80HP (this is the newest R2300 - 2300cc version)
5) Sauer have 5 different engine options
6) Sauer bolts onto Rotax mount
5) Sauer has a water cooled option
6)Sauer engines include EVERYTHING, revmaster you pay extra for almost everything other than the engine
7) Sauer is less than the revmater (apples with apples) 4950USD for the 220UL 85HP

and the list goes on ....

all im saying that Sauer is a cheaper alternative to Rotax (rip offs) although there are MANY others out there -- I know PLENTY about engines, as I work with all sizes, forms and types on a daily basis - and Vernon, Sauer, bimotor, the Chinese, Giant, Cobra, and and and ALL have something to offer -- but if you wanna compare (as close as possible ofcourse) apples o apples -- Sauer is a contender.

[justin.schoeman]

Justin - there are many differences between the Rvmaster engine and the Sauer -

1) Sauer do not use the same crank

Of course, they are both custom made.

2) Sauer crank is knife-edged

So is Revmaster.

3) Sauer crank is forged moly - not 4340 steel (2000TBO)

4340 is a specific grade of chromoly steel. And the Revmaster crank is also forged.

4) Sauer engine makes 115HP out o their 2100cc engine - Revmaster makes 80HP (this is the newest R2300 - 2300cc version)

That is the turbo version. Revmaster is also available turbo charged, at similar power ratings.

5) Sauer have 5 different engine options

Possibly an advantage. Revmaster is only available in 4...

6) Sauer bolts onto Rotax mount

That is new to me. Last I looked, they only provided VW or Diehl mount options.

5) Sauer has a water cooled option

OK - this is possibly nice, but comes at a big price and weight penalty.

6)Sauer engines include EVERYTHING, revmaster you pay extra for almost everything other than the engine

Other way round. All you have to add on the Revmaster is the exhaust. Sauer you need to add exhasut and oil cooler.

7) Sauer is less than the revmater (apples with apples) 4950USD for the 220UL 85HP

Where did you get that price? I don't see them on the new web site. The old web site listed the 2200UL as ~€10,000 .

and the list goes on ....

all im saying that Sauer is a cheaper alternative to Rotax (rip offs) although there are MANY others out there -- I know PLENTY about engines, as I work with all sizes, forms and types on a daily basis - and Vernon, Sauer, bimotor, the Chinese, Giant, Cobra, and and and ALL have something to offer -- but if you wanna compare (as close as possible ofcourse) apples o apples -- Sauer is a contender.

Possibly - I would like to see where you got that pricing from though...

[CraigL]

Having been involved for the past 2 years in the development of an aviation engine for light aircraft, I have come to understand the complexities and time involved in a development of this nature. The responsibility you carry as a developer/seller is enormous, as the implications of an engine failure in flight are way more serious than an engine failure in an automotive environment. I do believe Rotax is way overpriced, but due to their dominance in the market, they can charge what they think people will pay, not necessarily what the product is actually worth. And due to the huge worldwide market, and more recently the military use of Rotax motors in drones and other UAV's, their prices are not likely to improve. Added to our weak Rand, as Turbo mentioned above, a new 914 with accessories will cost you €27000, which today is R405000! This price is almost double the cost of many LSA kits out there.

Hence the need for alternative engines. Our development on the Toyota 1NZ block has been slow, and in the end, very expensive. We changed our original bellhousings, and had to make new moulds with engine mounts on either side of the BH, and each mould costs nearly R80000. Then when we developed the original belt drive, we used a system of plates with spacers, but were not happy after several hundred hours of running on a test bed, there was the slightest of movement (I'm talking microns) and we went back to the drawing board. We then decided to cast the redrive casing, instead of bolting plates together, and close the front of the case with a tight fitting cover, into which the propeller shaft and bearings would be housed. (I'll try to attach a couple of photos). This meant more moulds..= $$$, but we couldn't afford the risk of the plates on the original redrive moving over time, and needing constant tightening etc.

Then once the new redrives were cast, and we had assembled them, on discussion with Boet, he made mention of the fact that the engine face is quite flat/blunt, and that a prop extension would be a wise addition. On discussion with my engineer, he wasn't happy with merely bolting on a prop extension of 120-150mm, as he felt it would place too much pressure on the propeller shaft bearings, so back to the CAD and then to the moulds ($$$$$$$ thanks Boet ), and now we have a 150mm extension on the redrive cover for those builders who want a more streamlined cowling. This kind of development is slow, expensive, and extremely frustrating. Every step of the process must be documented, tested and documented again.
The ECU's are another huge provider of headaches. Aftermarket ECU's don't seem to provide the stability needed in an aircraft setup, and with fuel injected engines, the complexities of fuel/air mixtures, limp modes and other obstacles are a minefield. We have ultimately opted to use the OEM ECU, from Toyota, but using a completely new custom made aviation type wiring harness that will utilise only the engine parameters and drivers. This negates all the other funnies such as motion sensors, door sensors, seatbelt warning sensors and dozens of potential wiring problems. The wires need to be of a specific (not cheap) type to reduce interference with radio etc, in an aviation environment.

We also didn't like the idea of the engine running at 4800rpm in the cruise, as most automotive engines run between 3000 and 3500rpm for most of their lives. SO, back to Toyota...and a different crank, giving us max power now at 4900 rpm instead of 5800 rpm. This allows us to run the engine at cruise at a more suitable 3800-4000rpm, giving us peace of mind that the engine will last longer, but still putting out over 100HP in the cruise. Having said that though, these engines are typical Toyota over-engineered, that even running at 130-140Hp, they are not nearly being worked as hard as they could be. With a small blower on them, I reckon 165-170HP is do-able.
But every step of the process takes time....now it's a different set of bearings for the crank, oversized, to allow the bearings to swim a bit more in the oil...again, we are talking microns...

The OEM flywheel is heavy, 8-9kg's. So to reduce weight, we machined aluminium flywheels, at 4kg's each including a centrifugal clutch to smoothen the engine and prop engagement at lower revs. Sorry sir, minimum order 20....at $1200 each....
and so on and so on.... We weren't happy running the engines on only a light flex plate. In the end, it looks like the engines will weigh approx. 86kg's dry, complete. For 135Hp, not a bad power to weight ratio.

Anyway, it seems we are now finally 100% complete, and will have stock (depending on the shipping delays) by March of my first engines and components. I have made an offer to Stefan at Kitplanes for one engine to test out in a Safari, and stand by that offer. The engines will be supplied new ex Japan, not used and overhauled. I am fitting one into my Savage Bobber demo aircraft, currently being assembled in Italy as a test bed, and this is likely to be the first LSA to fly with the Toyota Skywalker motor.
I wish we could have had this product on the market sooner, but as mentioned, all this takes time. After all, if I am to fly behind my own engine, I better have faith that it's not going to let me down...or else my wife might kill me.

For those of you who have been waiting for months for updates on the engines, my apologies, we are still at it, and should have stock soon.

Anyone interested can give me a call on 082 4590760, or drop me an email at craig@flyingfrontiers.com.

[vernon11]

Craig.
Must say it looks pretty good, but also looks rather bulky. Maybe just the picture, but I like it.
Vernon.

[leprechaun]

Secured an 1100 S BMW motor today , will collect on Monday , now the options , Bing CV carbs of BMW throttle bodies ??? , Comes with computer , harness and headers , Fuel pump is available , but the recogmend original or VW aftermarket ex golwagen , excellent service from these guys , Acoording to them 1100 is good choice , understressed and easy to plug and play can start on bench , Leprechaun

[Turbo]

Craig -- I wont reply to each Justin's last comments, as if I open the can of mettalurgical facts (whoopass) on the topic about chromoly , 4340 and carbon content, molybdenum and the hardenability of each materials used in the two engines, it will piss off the other readers off, as it will fly over most of the readers heads - BBUUTTT will also prove that Sauer are in fact leagues ahead of revmaster for less money.

A Point on the moulds -- we manufacture moulds for some o the highest forms of racing in the UK, castings are made from Inconel 713LC and MARm247 (something that will make 4340 look like tin cans) - and we manufacture this south African product which I personally exhibited at SEMA in 2012 -- I can guarantee you that you are overpaying for the moulds - if you want a referral for this to be manufactured to millspec outlines, laser treated, and spectrum analysis reports after each casting - let me know.

I met one of the directors of a locally developed 6 cylinder boxer engine NA and turbocharged at the AAD show in Cape Town in 2008 and assisted with ECU choice and sensor outlines and and -- we spoke of the very problem they had with engine management at that point, in fact their stand was directly opposite the Safomar Aerospace stand whom I did some contract work for at the time -- alas, that's another discussion for another time.

Justin -- im no ambassador for any engine, but I can assure you that the Revmaster is not even in the same ball game, let alone ball park as Sauer -- Sauer are so far advanced they will make revmaster look like the old beetle engine it originally was.... alas - facts are facts, and if you want them ill give them to you -- keep in mind, they are FACTS, not opinion and revmaster wont come close with technology, performance or price of Sauer - Fact!

[justin.schoeman]

Justin -- im no ambassador for any engine, but I can assure you that the Revmaster is not even in the same ball game, let alone ball park as Sauer -- Sauer are so far advanced they will make revmaster look like the old beetle engine it originally was.... alas - facts are facts, and if you want them ill give them to you -- keep in mind, they are FACTS, not opinion and revmaster wont come close with technology, performance or price of Sauer - Fact!

I will have to take your word for it, as there is very little technical info on their web site. But seeing as they build certified engines too, their quality will be good. But I would like to see confirmation of that price. When I checked last year, it was a little over double the price of the Revmaster. More expensive even than the Jabiru.

[CraigL]

Hey Turbo, you had me worried there for a minute..went & checked, actually paid that for 3 moulds, I see. Two BH moulds and the rear engine mount.

Vernon, yes, the engine is much bulkier than a 582 or other engine that many guys fly on trikes. I don't believe it's too bulky or heavy for a trike, as there are quite a large number of trikes flying particularly in Eastern Europe & Russia with heavier Suzuki G13 motors, a very similar 4 cyl engine to the Toyota we are using, just with about 95hp. You'll see what an installation like this looks like on this website www.airtrikes.net
I certainly wouldn't put an engine like this onto any of the older trikes such as a Windlass, and it would be overkill anyway, but the new, faster, heavier trikes would definitely manage. There are some Apollo Monsoons and Delta Jets flying with the Suzuki engines. I investigated this engine some time back, but it was not readily available in SA, and the Toyota engine looked like a better bet, was slightly lighter and had fuel injection.

It's a fairly narrow engine, about 520mm wide, and about 430mm long without bellhousing and redrive. Length with BH and belt drive etc to the prop is about 630mm. The area where some installations may battle a bit with is the depth of the engine, being an upright 4 cyl, at about 600mm. Installed weight should come in around the same as a Lycoming IO233 115hp LSA motor, but at a third of the price or less, and with an extra 20hp.

[Boet]

Craig, sorry for the extra $$$ I cost you, but I am glad you listened to me. The engine will now be much easier to make a streamlined cowling for. What is the redrive ratio? When will your Bobber be finished?

[Turbo]

Craig,

No worries man, I stumbled across the much improved pricing at one of the trade shows where there was a company who specialize in mould making for the aeronautical industry and anything that required investment casting, die casting (massive numbers and hence top quality) etc

So I used them on a small project and I was blown away - the mould making cost me less than a 5th of any of the local quotes, and since I have my own CNC machines, I was not able to make the mould for the same money even If I deducted my time cost out of it ---



Justin -- check on globalsources, Sauer advertise the pricing on their engine at this portal - and you will in fact be shocked at the price. FAR less than Revmaster - who in my opinion are expensive for what they are selling.

[justin.schoeman]

Justin -- check on globalsources, Sauer advertise the pricing on their engine at this portal - and you will in fact be shocked at the price. FAR less than Revmaster - who in my opinion are expensive for what they are selling.

I could not find anything on globalsource (except Sauer earth moving equipment). I have sent them an email - will see what they say.

You may think the Revmaster is expensive, but it is actually the cheapest of all the VW aero conversions that I know of (once you add in everything that is included in their stanard engine package). Only the Hummel engine comes close. When you get right down to it though, you will battle to build a cheaper VW yourself, unless you have your own machine shop, or you use used components. A basic 2300cc VW long block will set you back USD5,600 from the cheapest american supplier (using el-cheapo chinese parts). And then you need to add ingition, carburettors, prop drive, coolers, etc.

[CraigL]

Craig, sorry for the extra $$$ I cost you, but I am glad you listened to me. The engine will now be much easier to make a streamlined cowling for. What is the redrive ratio? When will your Bobber be finished?

Boet, we have done two ratios, one being 2.23:1 and the other around the 2.4:1 if I'm not mistaken. The Bobber is pretty much complete, and they will begin the engine install within the next week or 10 days it seems. This may take a little time as it is a new firewall forward setup. I will be going over there (Italy) as soon as they are fairly close to complete, and will hopefully be there for the testing. It's been a long, slow road...but almost there now.