The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

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Leprachaun
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The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby Leprachaun » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:55 pm

Hi Folks just to let you know these okes are wide awake-???
A Bantam B22J was sold in the North and on being "ferried" to the South it developed a "problem"
I had a phone call and informed the CAA and within 15 minutes the ("seller) and( buyer ) were contacted ,
When a plane is sold the ATO is nil and void - so says the law - between the seller and buyer there is some interresting issues which may be resolved over a cup of tea ............... you know where- Rumour has it that the Bantam had a fuel problem on the way down - Rumour has it there was too much air in the tank - I cannot confirm , but im sure - peters Law will prevail ( the truth will out ) . in the meantime Im sure tea and biscuits will be had ??
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:11 pm

When is the aircraft "sold". When cash changes hands or when the CAR47A is lodged at CAA?

Just a question.

I have sold a couple and this has always bothered me, since often the "new" owner wants you to deliver the aerie for him.....
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby Eggbeater » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:16 pm

Hi All

I think that the simple way around this is for the buyer to pay R1.00 less on the price and for the contract to state that ownership will pass once the purchase price is paid in full.

When the aircraft is ferried and arrives at its final destination the outstanding R1.00 is paid and ownership passes thus rendering the authority to fly void from that date but not before.
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby THI » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:13 pm

Leprachaun wrote:Hi Folks just to let you know these okes are wide awake-???
A Bantam B22J was sold in the North and on being "ferried" to the South it developed a "problem"
I had a phone call and informed the CAA and within 15 minutes the ("seller) and( buyer ) were contacted ,
When a plane is sold the ATO is nil and void - so says the law - between the seller and buyer there is some interresting issues which may be resolved over a cup of tea ............... you know where- Rumour has it that the Bantam had a fuel problem on the way down - Rumour has it there was too much air in the tank - I cannot confirm , but im sure - peters Law will prevail ( the truth will out ) . in the meantime Im sure tea and biscuits will be had ??
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby Gyronaut » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:57 pm

I think he means ATF (Authority to fly). This is what expires when a machine is sold.

I'd take Eggbeaters advice on this one. Beware though, and shh, he is an attorney and will probably charge like an angry bull if we told him :lol:
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby Eggbeater » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:00 pm

Hi All

Thanks for the vote of confidence JetRanger. Just for the record, I am robably one of the meekest and most mild persons you are likely to meet unless I am paid to be otherwise and, as I cannot afford my rates, I never become angry in my own cause.

Whiloe the position may not be as simple as stated in my earlier post I think it would be quite simple to incorporate a reservation of ownership clause in any contract of sale so that ownership does not pass until the happening of a certain event like payment in full or delivery of the aircraft to a specified location. There will probably be cases where the buyer will be the pilot flying the aircraft to its new location and the seller should ensure that insurance covering the delivery flight is taken out or the buyer agrees that should the aircraft come down on the delivery flight then he, the buyer, will make good the cost of any repairs. The real question is one of intent and an agreement or written contract provides very strong evidence of the actual intent.

While this may seem petty what one must remember is that where one has a piece of restrictive legislation (a law that restricts your rights) then, generally, that piece of legislation is interpreted restrictively and each word is taken to mean exactly what it says. Perhaps we can take, as an example (and I do not intend in any way to offend peoples'religious beliefs here), one of the ten commandments: "Thou shall not covet thy neighbour's wife" as an example. While this tells you what you cannot do it also tells you what you can do and that is covet your neighbour's daughters (nothing is said prohibiting this) and there is also nothing wrong with coveting the wives of those who are not your neighbours (of course you would have to see what the term neighbour actually means). While this may seem silly, this is how restrictive laws are interpreted because I must know, with a reasonable degree of certainty, what it is that I am not allowed to do. I should not be left to guess. Also and just for interest's sake, actual ignorance of the law is an excuse or defence in law and it is up to the lawmakers to ensure that the laws are comprehensible and unambiguous.

On my authorities to fly there is a point 5.1 which provides that:

"This authority is rendered invalid if the ownership of the aircraft is changed and must be returned to the commissioner within 30 days."

This is clear and it is only if the ownership of the aircraft is changed that the authority to fly is rendered invalid so I do think that a reservation of ownership clause deferring ownership, not possession, of the aircraft until the happening of some future event like full payment or something else, would work. The lagalities of such clauses have been tested in courts with the clauses one finds in hire purchase agreements which reserve ownership in favour of a bank until the price has been paid in full.

It will be quite interesting to see what comes from the case mentioned by Leprachaun.
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby skybound® » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:28 pm

Leprachaun wrote:When a plane is sold the ATO is nil and void - so says the law -
Can you please point us to this part of the law? I know it used to be in the old Part 24, but in the new one it almost seems to suggest that the ATF can be transferred. Parts to consider are 24.02.6 & 24.02.9 which covers validity and transfer of ATF.
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:49 am

Not sure where in law, but is says so on my ATF.

I am not lawyer, but ownership as far as CAA concerned only when the CAR47A is signed. Just make effective date after the ferry date... I can't see the problem? :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby Dish » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:31 am

"A Bantam B22J was sold in the North and on being "ferried" to the South it developed a "problem"
I had a phone call and informed the CAA and within 15 minutes the ("seller) and( buyer ) were contacted , "

What ??? - :o :o :o

I was at Aeroden on saturday, just finished an awesome flight - there was a VERY excited new owner waiting for his new plane. (Bantam) - There was no "problem" with fuel or too much air in the tank?? the ferry pilot had ample fuel!! The only problem was that the little "fat takkie" tyre that some of the bantams come with had become a bit deformed during the flight - Perhaps a manufacturing fault?? But the Ferry Pilot ( a VERY well known and VERY experinced pilot) landed perfectly and made the new owner aware of the problem and a new tyre was already on route?? the plane was due to be flown to the next leg of its journey on sunday - i didnt have time to stay around for too long so im not sure whether the new tyre arrived on time... ?

So unless im shooting my mouth off about the wrong ferry flight or delivery, im failing to see the problem ?? :?: :?: :?: :?: can anyone enlighten me as to why this should be a big issue ??
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby skybound® » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:27 pm

RV4ker wrote:I am not lawyer, but ownership as far as CAA concerned only when the CAR47A is signed. Just make effective date after the ferry date... I can't see the problem? :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
That is exactly it - agreed. On top of that how would CAA know when legal delivery is taking place. They are not privy to the agreement between buyer and seller. Unless otherwise stated - I would suggest that delivery only takes place when BOTH the aircraft and signed CAR47A from seller are handed over to the new owner. Up until the signed CAR47A is handed over with log books etc the purchaser does not have the ability to effect a transfer with CAA.
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Re: The boytjies at CAA are wide awake?????

Postby skybound® » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:39 pm

Since there was no reply to my query - here we go - the low down from RAASA on when the ATF expires - basically ATF expires when registration is changed at CAA:

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 01&start=0

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