Is this the end of microlighting in S.A. ?

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Mike Cordeiro
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Postby Mike Cordeiro » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:39 pm

skybound ® wrote:Think that is sidetracking the issue a little. The 582 is now recognised as a certified aircraft engine and has been for sometime (someone posted a link on here a short while back with that info - use the search facilty to find it)

That aside. CAA are not insisting that you make use of certified aircraft engine. They are just saying that you need to maintain whichever engine you choose to the manufacturers specification.
Why then, when you by a new Rotax engine it states on the box "not for aviation use" :?
Shouldn`t CAA then enforce this ?
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Postby Sleeper » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:09 pm

I would like to hear now that MISASA will take up this issue for these 2 members with CAA (I hope they are members!).
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Postby RudiGreyling » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:23 pm

582 is now certificated not certified there is a difference:
viewtopic.php?t=6337

Anycase we are getting side tracked on this issue, I recommend this person/s to take the 2 ATFs that have been refused directly to Aeroclub to show to them that there is now evidence of refusal of ATFs, because this goes directly against their released statement:
viewtopic.php?p=61080#61080

I hope you are a recreational flyer, and I hope you are a Misasa and hence Aeroclub member otherwise sorry for you, until it happens to an Aeroclub member..

Anycase WHO refused the ATF? We need a name
and what is the difference between the first 27 days of this year and now suddenly yesterday?

Lastly it is my opinion that this whole way this maintenance thing is being handled by CAA goes against the spirit of Non Type Certified Aircraft and Experimental Aviation, without any real prove. The only way to get a ruling to this is effectively to let a judge make a call, but who has the time and money?

EDIT: Please do above and report back personally, I hate 2nd hand information, there is always a lack of detail or interpretation problem.

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Last edited by RudiGreyling on Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Andre » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:44 pm

Does anybody know exactly how much a crank replacement will set you back
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Postby Aviation Engines » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:46 pm

We are currently working with CAA on finding a solution, we hope to finalise something by the end of this week and inform everyone accordingly.

As a long term solution, Mike Blyth is also busy with the amendments to the regulations.
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Postby Wargames » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:49 pm

Andre wrote:Does anybody know exactly how much a crank replacement will set you back
Hi Andre,

Big speculation. This I know for sure. Only the crank will set you back R6700(from Aviation Engine + Vat included). This is without postage. Add to that the labour and the guys are speculating around R20k.

But remember: There is no use opening up the engine and only replacing the crank. You need to replace all gaskets as well. I don't have the cost of that.

The replacement would have been a lot less, but CAA expects that a rotax machanic does this, since we cannot do maintenance ourselfs anymore.
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Postby Andre » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:03 pm

Thanks Wargames

I just had a MAJOR overall done on my Mastercraft skiboat (305, V8 Ford engine) by a automotive company and the whole lot (pistons,rings,bearings ect.) only cost me R 12 000
How can they justify charging over R 20 000 for a little 2 stroke engine
Something fishy here I think
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:14 pm

Andre wrote:Does anybody know exactly how much a crank replacement will set you back
I got written quotes from Nirren and Gideon. Both around R25000 incl labour, vat and parts... :?
The estimate of R25,000-00 does include crankshaft, pistons, all bearings, seals and gaskets as well as labour.
With all optional extra's around R32000 excl. VAT

A 912 will cost R45K to O/H at 1500hrs.
912 less than half over 1500hrs, but it is then not a microlight and will need sport plane or recreational license which is a whole new beast... Don't know how they are going to treat trikes over 450kg's? Will these also require a RPL?
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Postby Wargames » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:18 pm

Andre wrote:I just had a MAJOR overall done on my Mastercraft skiboat (305, V8 Ford engine) by a automotive company and the whole lot (pistons,rings,bearings ect.) only cost me R 12 000
How can they justify charging over R 20 000 for a little 2 stroke engine
Something fishy here I think
Totally agree with you.

My car has got 230 000 km on the clock. Engine still runs without a hitch. @ average speed of 60km/h it gives me a total hours on engine of 4600 hours.

Big question: why is the crank the issue, surely I can understand bearings and all that, But why change a crank with "Limited" hours on it.

Maybe rattex can make some changes and state what exactly need to be changed at what hour. I am all for that. My goal to is to fly save and with in all boundaries laid out by authorities. But is making me thinking of robbing a bank. Anybody else in on it??
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Postby Aerosan » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:19 pm

OK so now what :?: do I chuck the Rattex and install my old trusty aerovee :?: or do I just take an angle grinder remove all rotax insignia and call it a "aerosan" engine that merely look like a rotax and fly it in that way :?: I’m not trying to be difficult but I really can afford the R20K to get a new crankshaft. My common sense tells me that the reason for not allowing us to fly over city’s etc. is because of this very reason. We are flying experimental aircraft and get treated as such. If I had a converted VW 1800 engine in the front nobody would say a word :evil: :!: My point is , we are not certified. We do not fly over any build up areas. The term grassroots aviation started with a few guys who wanted to fly and went forth took calculated risks. This is what seperated us from the rest. Now we are being forced into a category with more and more red tape. I seem to remember this happening and most sports. It starts small and as it gains popularity it becomes a rich man`s sport.

I just muff in general today and sick of non informed people making decitions on my account :evil: :evil:
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Postby Wargames » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:24 pm

RV4ker wrote:912 less than half over 1500hrs, but it is then not a microlight and will need sport plane or recreational license which is a whole new beast... Don't know how they are going to treat trikes over 450kg's? Will these also require a RPL?
Is this 450kg on take of?? or a dry weight??
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:32 pm

I asked CAA the question yesterday and they were non committal. I have removed the dataplate of the RV's lycoming engine. I call it a a RVcoming engine and I will maintain according the to manufacturers maintenance schedule (I am in process of writing it) :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

If you "modify" the rattex it no longer a RATTEX and thus is not subject to RATTEX manual? I don't understand the where the EXPERIMENTAL nature of NTCA aviation got lost.

I have a VW on the Cubby and it just been O/H at 700hrs As a result of abuse rather than K@K engine - run without oil :? :? :? ).) Tip to tail plane rebuilt with almost all new components and it cost less than R40K all in. It has been hammered as a flight school aerie and not looked after and has not had any major engine incidents. The rattex version is R40K more new and requires R100K more engine maintenance over same time? That why I did not replace it with Rattex 582.

Surely if you sign a declaration that are using as experimental engine then where is the problem? For school and commercial they "MAY" have a case, but I will not fly a dangerous aerie. I tend not to risk my life for fun, but forcing the AD's and the resultant escalating costs is what resulted in experimental planes in the first place. It going full circle. We will simply be forced to go back to grass roots and use uncertified filters and plugs etc and thus it invalidated the RATTEX warranty and make it an experimental engine? I think there gonna be a huge market for the 300 hr rattex engines...

WHAT AM I MISSING? :roll: :roll: :roll: I found a RV in Canada, but could not buy it as engine had 2300hrs on it. Guy who is selling it has another with 3600hrs on the same engine unopened. He flies over some of the :shock: :shock: :shock: country I have ever seen. He maintains if you look after it it will go forever. As soon as you open it it will give you shit. Blow Bye's are all within limits and it hardly uses oil? Locally we are not allowed to run experimental engines (lycoming or Conti) over ecommended TBO. Why then bother with NTCA if it going to be controlled just like TCA?

I still feel that NTCA as a category at CAA is too big and that is the root of the problem....
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:36 pm

Wargames wrote:
RV4ker wrote:912 less than half over 1500hrs, but it is then not a microlight and will need sport plane or recreational license which is a whole new beast... Don't know how they are going to treat trikes over 450kg's? Will these also require a RPL?
Is this 450kg on take of?? or a dry weight??
450 is (MAUW) Max All Up Weight based on 85kg pilot, 85 kg pax and 22kg's of fuel + empty weight of plane (incl BRS. There is additional weight for float plane internationally, but not applicable in SA and Dept WA won't allow puddle jumpers locally).
Empty weight is below 260kg's. (Check bush baby empty weight with 582 for eg :shock: :shock: :shock: )

Come June/july there are going to be plenty MPL (even 582 equipped) aeries who are going to be forced to go RPL, PPL or grounded... (Again I heard this first hand at CAA). I don't know how they will enforce it, but it is coming.... :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Postby Wargames » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:40 pm

Does anybody know how other countries like Europe and US of FA and Canada is handling their NTCA categories??
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Postby RudiGreyling » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:42 pm

Aviation Engines wrote:We are currently working with CAA on finding a solution, we hope to finalise something by the end of this week and inform everyone accordingly.

As a long term solution, Mike Blyth is also busy with the amendments to the regulations.
Thanks Niren, keep us posted...

I still would like the individuals to personally come forth and give details of event, and if they are taking it up with Aeroclub as they should do, cause only Aeroclub can take on CAA and help change the rules for good.

It looks like one step forward, one step back. Just as we see a glimmer of hope, with CAA acting responsibly and in our interest with their communications to the NTCA industry, then we get set back again by their actions.
http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 833#364833
Orbert Chakarisa: Executive Manager: Aircraft Safety SACAA wrote:I would like to take this time to inform the industry that the SACAA is fully aware of the importance of having a vibrant NTCA sector. It has NEVER been the intention of the SACAA to deliberately run down this very important sector of the aviation industry. As a matter of fact, the SACAA bemoans the unfortunate instances in which the treatment which industry members have been subjected to has seemed to suggest a lack of support and sensitivity from the SACAA. We sincerely apologize for this unfortunately impression which seemed to have been created.
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