Facts regarding "plastic" planes

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Rudix
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Re: Facts regarding plasitic planes

Postby Rudix » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:50 am

janvdm wrote:Hi Rudix,

I will be visiting Urbanair (Samba factory) as well as the Sting factory on the 25th and 26th October 2006 in the Czech Republic. On your return from your visit please post some interesting do's and don't that you experienced on your visit and or if you need addisional info that I can gather, please shout.

Regards

Jan van der Merwe
Hi Jan,

Great, I will do that, I am looking at my plans to maybe include Urbanair as well, might end up staying for a few more days. Thanks for the offer, if I have any unanswered questions I will let you know.

Enjoy your trip !

Safe flying,
Rudi
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Postby Morph » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:53 am

Some discussion is better than no discussion. This is the most activity the forum has had in a while so keep it up.

Finally, none of this is personal so let's keep it that way. The idea is to debate hot topics like this and maybe we can all learn something.
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Postby GR8-DAD » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:36 pm

Morph wrote:Some discussion is better than no discussion. This is the most activity the forum has had in a while so keep it up.
Yea, and very nice to see a lot of "new" members also participating. :P
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Postby emil » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:55 pm

:shock:
Last edited by emil on Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RudiGreyling » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:12 pm

Morph wrote:Some discussion is better than no discussion. This is the most activity the forum has had in a while so keep it up.

Finally, none of this is personal so let's keep it that way. The idea is to debate hot topics like this and maybe we can all learn something.
Ditto, but it looks like it just got personal, not nice! I am out of here....
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Postby Morph » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:37 pm

As with all newer technologies there is resistance to change. I remember when I was a kid and I would listen to the old man talking about cars and the cheap plastic shit that was coming out of Japan, vs the good solid 'brute force and ignorance' metal monsters from the States. Today it's the use of plastic that is saving lives with controlled crumple zones etc. The chrome monsters are all rusting away. A mate of mine had a bumper bashing in a Smart Car and as they reversed the car away the bumper popped back into shape.

Additionally these newer 'Plastic' planes are starting to stand the test of time. It would be nice to get some of that data here. How old is the olders Jabiru in years and flying hours, what sort of maintenance was done etc.

Even though I personally prefer rag and pipes it does not mean they are maintenance -free. The otherday a hangar mate noticed the dorsal fin on my plane was a little loose. When he wiggled it 4 of the 8 rivits holding it in place were completely loose. :shock: Fortunately the simplicity of these planes makes them easy to repair. I'n not sure that's the case with the composites.

And again, let's not get emotional guys, it's a discussion not a battle
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Postby Rudix » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:37 pm

RudiGreyling wrote:
Morph wrote:Some discussion is better than no discussion. This is the most activity the forum has had in a while so keep it up.

Finally, none of this is personal so let's keep it that way. The idea is to debate hot topics like this and maybe we can all learn something.
Ditto, but it looks like it just got personal, not nice! I am out of here....
Hi Morph & Rudi,

Yes, I agree, this should not become personal and for my part in it becoming personal I ask forgiveness !!

I enjoy a good discussion but it becomes unpleasant when the attacks become personal !

I will try and keep it technical with no attacks !

I do agree that we can all learn from "heated" discussions, if it stays clean !

Safe, and peacefull flying :wink:
Rudi
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Postby Rudix » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:07 pm

Ok, me again,

I will try and answer some of the (very valid) questions asked.

The question was asked "Why would XYZ build a plane with a shorter life than ABC ?"

Ok, without letting it sound like aerodynamics 101, here are SOME of the reasons this happens:

With airframe design, like most things in life, there is always a tradeoff, here we have a case of a plane that was designed to be one of the fastest (if not THE fastest ?) ML around, that along with having a good range.

So, staying within some limitations like the engines that are available and the 450kg limit of ML's, how do you make your plane faster than the opposition ?

There are a few way of making a plane faster, you can decrease the wing area (span usually), you can make the wing thinner (and use a airfoil, like a laminar flow one, that is more suitable for high speed flight but has other disadvantages like the need to keep it clean, accurate and smooth or else it does not function correctly), and you can make the plane lighter.

Making the wing area smaller helps with the top speed, the tradeoff is a higher landing/stall speed.

Making the wing thinner helps with speed as well, the tradeoff again being a higher stall speed AND with a thinner wing it is more difficult to make the wing strong, a thin wing has a lot more chance of flexing and is thus more prone to fatigue. This is ONE of the reasons a faster plane MIGHT have a shorter life.

Making the plane lighter helps a lot, remember plane needs less lift to fly and generating lift creates drag, thus, the lighter plane flies faster all being equal. How do you make a plane lighter ? Well, clever structural design helps, using "exotic" materials like Carbon or Boron fibers helps a lot, and making all components thinner/smaller helps as well. The tradeoff here is again that you might end up with a more flexible structure, remember a flexible structure will often be stronger than a rigid one (we have all seen a big jet's wings flex :shock: ) BUT, remember a more flexible airframe is more prone to fatigue, and thus a shorter expected life.

Combine the above with a plane that now flies faster than the opposition (as planned) and you have an airframe that has to handle higher loads due to the speed, think of the stress involved flying through turbulence at 70k compared to 110k. This is by the way why you will often see faster planes having a "max maneuvering or max turbulent air penetration speed" that is often less then the cruising speed the plane is capable of. This is a way of trying to manage and lower the stress on an airframe and extend the life. So, again, all this adds up to an airframe that might have a shorter life.

All the above choices are made when the plane is designed and are accepted tradeoffs that the engineers accept. We see this in other areas as well, we know how well the Robinson R22/R44's fly, but have you looked at the life expectancy of those helicopters before a total (expensive) rebuild ?

Sure, you can build fast planes, you can build strong planes and you can build long lasting planes but combining the 3 ? NOT that simple.

Other problem areas with composites are quality control (Maybe why the factory wants to inspect an airframe after 1000h ?) and factors like UV degradation of epoxies, It is very difficult for the designer or factory to predict how much UV exposure your plane will have during its life. Also important here is the heat it will be exposed to, almost all epoxies go soft in heat and the constant cycle of heating/cooling causes chemical breakdown and changing properies in epoxies, again the designer cannot predict the exposure and to play it safe has to build in safety factors and cannot commit to long airframe life.

A composite plane flying in Europe will almost certainly have a longer airframe life than one flying here in South Africa, or parts of the USA for that matter.

Ok, of the soap box again :D

Safe flying,
Rudi
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic." ;)
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Postby Rudix » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:39 pm

GR8-DAD wrote:
Morph wrote:Some discussion is better than no discussion. This is the most activity the forum has had in a while so keep it up.
Yea, and very nice to see a lot of "new" members also participating. :P
Hi "Dad"

Discussions can be a lot of fun and I know I learn a lot from other people's posts. I also feel it is good to share knowledge and I do it when I can, even if it means "getting shot at" :shock: :D

Regards,
Rudi
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic." ;)

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